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Your take on The Sith Order and the Jedi Order!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Your take on The Sith Order and the Jedi Order!

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 02:51 PM | #161
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Have you read Mein Kampf? Hitler openly attacks Jews. And I don't care how many died, I don't care if they only discriminated against certain Jews, the fact it lots of people were killed for baseless, ridiculous reasons. They were not a threat and yet they were exterminated? Why? Because Germany needed a scapegoat, something to direct there hate upon, a collective hate that will make them feel strong and unified, and make them loyal to the Nazis. And that's my point. In authoritarian dictatorships the leaders are obsessed with holding onto power and feel a need to control the people in anyway they can. So they use fear, hate etc etc. It happened in the USSR, it happened in Nazi Germany, Mao's China, the Roman Empire. It doesn't matter if there socialist, nationalist, like their people, hate their people, don't give a damn. The fact remains that when you focus so much power in a single individual, they abuse it, and the result it always mass genocide and suffering. Governments have killed more people than anything or anyone ever else has, and authoritarian dictatorships are always the main culprits. What is the purpose of a government that has know care for life other than themselves? What good can they bring ever? None.
yes, I read it, quite a silly book really, diary of fantasta. they were not exterminated, not by gas for sure, but they were victims of hard labor in camps, that is true. and they were dangerous to a system where they didnt want to adapt if they were not a zionists, even other Jews looked down on those poor people, but faith was strong in them so they died for it, like many other believers of many relligions. It is not as Germans were mentally enslaved, but yes, certainly they were reminded of their fabricated roots and someone raised their patriotic spirits. Third Reich wasnt even in one tenth focused on hating Jews, they focused on progress, development, knowledge, that was a golden age of science. Individuals who have power rarely abuse it ( unless it is Africa ) and Hitler didnt exactly abused his power, he was what his country needed for that time.
Empires tend to expand, that is natural course for them and Sith Empire has a great potential to make galaxy a better place for everyone, even aliens. You were definately too much exposed to democracy propaganda to view rule of one man as a bad thing, altho it is never one man, usually monarch has ministers and advisors, experts that are chose because of their abilities not nepotism, thats what Sith Empire, experts on the Council, people who serve their Emperor loyally
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.05.2013 , 02:56 PM | #162
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
yes, I read it, quite a silly book really, diary of fantasta. they were not exterminated, not by gas for sure, but they were victims of hard labor in camps, that is true. and they were dangerous to a system where they didnt want to adapt if they were not a zionists, even other Jews looked down on those poor people, but faith was strong in them so they died for it, like many other believers of many relligions. It is not as Germans were mentally enslaved, but yes, certainly they were reminded of their fabricated roots and someone raised their patriotic spirits. Third Reich wasnt even in one tenth focused on hating Jews, they focused on progress, development, knowledge, that was a golden age of science. Individuals who have power rarely abuse it ( unless it is Africa ) and Hitler didnt exactly abused his power, he was what his country needed for that time.
Empires tend to expand, that is natural course for them and Sith Empire has a great potential to make galaxy a better place for everyone, even aliens. You were definately too much exposed to democracy propaganda to view rule of one man as a bad thing, altho it is never one man, usually monarch has ministers and advisors, experts that are chose because of their abilities not nepotism, thats what Sith Empire, experts on the Council, people who serve their Emperor loyally
Please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling...

Sorry, for me, as a German, all what he writes is horrible to read. I really hope he is from somewhere else and talks about thinks he knows nothing about.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 02:56 PM | #163
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
well, lets take the only point of your post which is true:



so, other peoples were enslaved and killed too. I fail to understand how that makes the Third Reich better. Actually, it makes it worse.

I really, really hope that not all those who support the Sith have real life opinions like you do.
the word "killed" makes a difference, they were not intentionally killed, their deaths were a product of a difficulties in a camp, food, hard work, lack of hygiene and many other things - but that was a common practise, I mean camps since history of wars

I justify progress and understand that you cannot avoid victims, if you want to break a spirit of a conquered nation, it depends on culture. Even Sith Empire is not exactly obliged to slaughter everyone, they can simply ask some smaller states to join them, if they refuse, attack them, then ask them, if they refuse, well, that is a beginning of a terror
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 03:00 PM | #164
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling...

Sorry, for me, as a German, all what he writes is horrible to read. I really hope he is from somewhere else and talks about thinks he knows nothing about.
I know that current german education was nicely brainwashed about Third Reich to the limits but on the other hand, german education system, as a structure is from 1938, so it works. Many german old people are even afraid to remind Third Reich as something good, because it is politically incorrect. That is quite sad,so you think that Third Reich was mostly focused on hating jews, that is ridiculous
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.05.2013 , 03:06 PM | #165
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling...

Sorry, for me, as a German, all what he writes is horrible to read. I really hope he is from somewhere else and talks about thinks he knows nothing about.
I feel for you.

This guy is totally off the rails, he doesn't even have a point, he doesn't seem to understand that genocide is genocide no matter what the reasons or how much they focused on it, and its certainly not a good thing. And I'm tired of debating with him. Let's all just console ourselves with the knowledge that these kinds of governments never last and never will, but as much as he argues otherwise, people don't like oppression, murder and suffering. Go democracy! Go Republic!

Anyway, this debate over the ideals of the Sith & Galactic Empire's has regressed into god knows what. So lets get back on topic so the purpose of this thread isn't entirely sullied:

Quote:
@Maaurin. You make interesting points and I agree with your thoughts on democracy and that. Monarchies can work, but such rule centralizing powers in a single figure is dangerous. But on the topic of the Force:

I get the idea you agree that the Force seeks some form of balance between light and dark in the galaxy, but just because this is so doesn't mean we should accept it, for the dark side harms the galaxy in ways beyond the Force. And I would agree.

To be honest I'm not really sure what a Je'daii Order would entail, would partially accepting the dark side lead to suffering? I do not think so. Much like the Father the Jedi would be dedicated to harmony, peace and balance. They would be benevolent in nature but also willing to be practical, and make sacrifices if need be. Take a look at the Je'daii Code:

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no fear; there is power.
I am the heart of the Force.
I am the revealing fire of light.
I am the mystery of darkness
In balance with chaos and harmony,
Immortal in the Force.

The first tenet is the same as that of the Jedi Order. The Je'daii would uphold knowledge just as the Jedi do, and provide wisdom to the Republic and other nations that strive for peace. It's the second power that could be dangerous, the Je'daii reject fear but embrace power. I don't really think I understand this code enough to comment. But power can mean many things, power in the Force, power through knowledge. I believe Je'daii can possess power without wanting power over others.

I'm at a crossroads here. The benefits of the Jedi are they are clearly protectors of peace and justice, dedicating to serving the Republic and defending the weak. But they attract threats from the Sith and others and bring them to the Republic. And they are caught in an eternal conflict with the Sith. The Je'daii Order are in balance with the Force, and so war between Force users is minimal. But they are not there to protect the Republic, it must learn to protect itself. They serve only as advisers.

I'm still leaning toward the Je'daii Order, perhaps combined with the ideals of the Baran Do Sages. A non-militant (that would be for the best) organisation that offers advice and instruction to institutes willing to uphold the peace. There primary purpose is to study the Force and use to guide their decisions and fuel the wisdom they give to the galaxy. Meditation is their primary purpose. And they quell Sith threats before they can begin. Non-military here is important. An organisation that does not focus heavily or at all on combat, and using the Force as a weapon is unlikely to cause students to grasp at power and want to dominate others by Force. Because unlike the Jedi they are completely dedicated to peace and pacifism. Pacifist force users are unlikely to turn Sith. Think of them as almost a secret society, dedicating to keeping peace in the galaxy, and working behind the scenes to ensure this happens.
Thoughts?

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.05.2013 , 03:08 PM | #166
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
I know that current german education was nicely brainwashed about Third Reich to the limits but on the other hand, german education system, as a structure is from 1938, so it works. Many german old people are even afraid to remind Third Reich as something good, because it is politically incorrect. That is quite sad,so you think that Third Reich was mostly focused on hating jews, that is ridiculous
I very well know the Third Reich wasn't mostly focused on hating jews. But they hated jews enough to start a genocide* and they hated russions, polish etc. enough to plan a genocide.

*oh, and "no gas chambers"- sh*t doesn't matter about that, by the way. during the occupation easter europe they did it the old fashioned way by simply shooting them.

But I agree with Beniboybling, lets send this guy to Bogan and don't answer him anymore.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.05.2013 , 03:21 PM | #167
Back on topic:

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
@Maaurin. You make interesting points and I agree with your thoughts on democracy and that. Monarchies can work, but such rule centralizing powers in a single figure is dangerous.
Yeah, democracy is basically the safer ways for countries to go. The Jedi decided to serve a promising democracy after all, but they also helped good monarchies. so, about the force.

Quote:
I get the idea you agree that the Force seeks some form of balance between light and dark in the galaxy, but just because this is so doesn't mean we should accept it, for the dark side harms the galaxy in ways beyond the Force. And I would agree.
Yeah. As I said, I think maybe it is even possible to find some form of balance which holds almost the full potential of the light side and avoids most effects of the dark side.

Quote:
To be honest I'm not really sure what a Je'daii Order would entail, would partially accepting the dark side lead to suffering? I do not think so. Much like the Father the Jedi would be dedicated to harmony, peace and balance.
That's a point where I think that many of those who advocate balance still have a chosen side underneath. I just read into the Dawn of the Jedi comicbooks again: (Almost) all warnings the Je'daii speak are warnings against the dark side, and as far as I see not a single one against the light side. During their time on Tython, the Je'daii seem to have realized that the dark side is more dangerous.

I think many of those who advacate balance tend lean towards one side or the other. The Father leaned towards the light side. My balanced Jedi Consular leans toward the dark side (he supports Rajivari's philosophy), but you can't say that out loud when you are member of the Jedi Council.

About those who fall to the dark side too far, I'm not sure if the Je'daii way is the better. The Jedi seem to have healers etc. who are dedicated to bring them back from the dark side. The Je'daii often seem to say "Help yourself, but get out of here (to the moon)."

Quote:
They would be benevolent in nature but also willing to be practical, and make sacrifices if need be. Take a look at the Je'daii Code:

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no fear; there is power.
I am the heart of the Force.
I am the revealing fire of light.
I am the mystery of darkness
In balance with chaos and harmony,
Immortal in the Force.

The first tenet is the same as that of the Jedi Order. The Je'daii would uphold knowledge just as the Jedi do, and provide wisdom to the Republic and other nations that strive for peace. It's the second power that could be dangerous, the Je'daii reject fear but embrace power. I don't really think I understand this code enough to comment. But power can mean many things, power in the Force, power through knowledge. I believe Je'daii can possess power without wanting power over others.
I think the Je'daii code is even less meant as a guidline for actions than the Jedi code. It is a mystic text to meditate on, which will help you to find inner balance and reflect the balance to the world.

So every Je'daii has to come up with his own interpretation of these lines, I guess. *shrug*

All in all, I'd prefer some text which clearly states the goals, something like this:

Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.
Jedi respect all life, in any form.
Jedi serve others, rather than rule over them, for the good of the galaxy.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.


Quote:
I'm at a crossroads here. The benefits of the Jedi are they are clearly protectors of peace and justice, dedicating to serving the Republic and defending the weak. But they attract threats from the Sith and others and bring them to the Republic. And they are caught in an eternal conflict with the Sith. The Je'daii Order are in balance with the Force, and so war between Force users is minimal. But they are not there to protect the Republic, it must learn to protect itself. They serve only as advisers.
Unfortunatly, I think even the Je'daii order wouldn't be able to prevent Dark Side threats. They lived in peace so long because the Rakata didn't know about them.
I even think that the Rakata - Je'daii war was what motivated them to rethink their devotion to balance.

Quote:
I'm still leaning toward the Je'daii Order, perhaps combined with the ideals of the Baran Do Sages. A non-militant (that would be for the best) organisation that offers advice and instruction to institutes willing to uphold the peace. There primary purpose is to study the Force and use to guide their decisions and fuel the wisdom they give to the galaxy. Meditation is their primary purpose. And they quell Sith threats before they can begin. Non-military here is important. An organisation that does not focus heavily or at all on combat, and using the Force as a weapon is unlikely to cause students to grasp at power and want to dominate others by Force. Because unlike the Jedi they are completely dedicated to peace and pacifism. Pacifist force users are unlikely to turn Sith. Think of them as almost a secret society, dedicating to keeping peace in the galaxy, and working behind the scenes to ensure this happens.[/COLOR]
Actually, I think there should be several organizations, as long as some of them are balanced and some of them are light side.

But I don't think all of them should be pacifists. Organizations like the Imperial Knights would do their part in preserving peace and justice for the nation they serve.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
01.05.2013 , 03:27 PM | #168
Alright: let's leave that awful debate with Surinen behind and get back on topic.

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 03:38 PM | #169
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Alright: let's leave that awful debate with Surinen behind and get back on topic.
yes, about ongoing discussion, as much as I like Jeeeedaaay code I dislike Marun's concept of pacifists, one to be a pacifist, in males case of human species, must have a visible deficit of testosterone. Pacifism is the weakness and if the Jeeedaaaay would remain this way then every victim of the Republic would be on their hands as they, with their power didnt engage.

a perfect solution to this situation would be a current state of Jeedaay who would form a Dominion with its Master as a leader of council and whole political being. They would send their Jeeeedaaay knights in pairs, one follower of Ashla, Ashlan, anyway that lion from Narnia and the other one follower of Bogan, the first one would lead mediation, if it failed then Bogan would simply cut them into pieces
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.05.2013 , 03:46 PM | #170
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
yes, about ongoing discussion, as much as I like Jeeeedaaay code I dislike Marun's concept of pacifists, one to be a pacifist, in males case of human species, must have a visible deficit of testosterone. Pacifism is the weakness and if the Jeeedaaaay would remain this way then every victim of the Republic would be on their hands as they, with their power didnt engage.

a perfect solution to this situation would be a current state of Jeedaay who would form a Dominion with its Master as a leader of council and whole political being. They would send their Jeeeedaaay knights in pairs, one follower of Ashla, Ashlan, anyway that lion from Narnia and the other one follower of Bogan, the first one would lead mediation, if it failed then Bogan would simply cut them into pieces
Actually, I'm not necessarily advocating pacifism. I'm ok with:

"Jedi use their powers to defend and protect." instead of "Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others."

I'm fine with cutting Sith into pieces when necessary, but I prefer to only incapacitate them and then lead them to the light side.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall