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Where are these 'ultra powerful low timer cooldowns' you speak of?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
Where are these 'ultra powerful low timer cooldowns' you speak of?

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
01.05.2013 , 06:16 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Altogether, assassins have 4 defensive cooldowns: Deflection (weapon damage), Force Shroud (tech damage), Overload Saber (lockout-free medpack), and Force Cloak. I use Overload Saber fairly aggressively, and I'm always surprised at assassin/shadow tanks who don't. Force Cloak is another uncommon one, but primarily due to the fact that it debuffs healing. It has to be used very carefully with full knowledge of what you're about to do to your party. I use it absolutely every time I tank NiM Kephess (twice in the same fight if my co-tank dies in the last phase). Similarly, I use it every time on NiM Toth and Zorn (to reset the medpack lockout), fairly frequently on HM Dread Guard, and every time on HM Writhing Horror (to avoid pulling off my co-tank at the start). Also, there's all the situational uses when you need to get someone up and the battle rez is down.

No question though, the bread and butter is Deflection and Force Shroud. Use and abuse the heck out of those cooldowns. A huge part of what separates good assassin tanks from great ones is an active knowledge of the specific fight and the timing of relevant damage (e.g. Force Shroud right before Savage Wounding is applied on NiM Kephess).
Overcharge Sabre not Overload Sabre.
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Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
01.05.2013 , 01:38 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by ThePasserby View Post
Indeed, and I've yet to get a handle on this. Is there a guide written specifically for Shadow tanks that advises on when to use Resilience on certain bosses' attacks?
No. There are TORParse combat logs, however, which form a decent starting point.

For HC (HM+), here are my thoughts:
Z&T - Overall low DTPS, so not essential to micromanage. Maximize Shroud/Resilience uptime on Zorn, and cycle between on-use relic and Deflection on Toth (covering gaps with Absorb adrenal).

Tanks - If tanking Stormcaller, Shroud shortly after engaging and after each defensive systems when you resume normal tanking. There's a predictable Electric Discharge shortly after each engage point, which is the largest spike of damage, and you'll also negate at least 1 regular attack.

Stormcaller's damage is insanely predictable. He uses Zap Attack every 3s or 2s after Electric Discharge. He uses Electric Discharge about every 11 seconds, but that is frequently interrupted by DD or defensive systems. He uses Double Destruction 15 seconds after each tanking phase starts (and obviously no attacks while DD is channeling). He doesn't actually resume attacking you for 10s after beginning to channel DD, so you have a while to sit and spin at that point.

During floor tanking phase, you take a hit from Mortar Volley every 3s. "Lightning rods" land every 6s (coincide with every other Mortar Volley hit) I believe, but it's been a couple weeks since I've done EC and I never explicitly timed it.

I've never actually tanked Firebrand (never saw a reason to, and taunt swapping is easier than tank swapping), so I don't have specific data to help there. However, as he's pure M/R, Resilience/Shroud is obviously not of any great use.

Vorgath - Use to negate damage from Sticky Grenade. Everything else is M/R. If anything is hitting in the minefield, there are deeper problems.

Kephess - The most obvious one is on Kephess himself, when he leaps into the air. You can see his shadow on the ground before he lands (assuming you have shadows on) to predict the exact moment of landing. Hitting Shroud as he lands will negate the damage from Empowered Slash and the first couple ticks of Savage Wounding (assuming, of course, you've taunted him). In a pinch, it can also be used if you misplace a purple circle and need to cross through one whilst still affected by Breath of the Masters.

Another useful time to use Resilience/Shroud is immediately upon engaging Baradium Bombers. If you start with a Shroud+Taunt, you can nearly always force the first Rocket Blast onto yourself and negate it. After that point, the BB is probably chain-stunned until dead, but avoiding the first Rocket Blast can be tricky.

Yet another is for the Trandoshans, you can Resilience/Shroud > Slow Time/Wither for extra threat on the Trenchgutters when they pop if you're called upon to tank them. EC NiM strategy is generally very different from HM and this may not be relevant depending on how you handle it.

You could also use it to blank Channeled Pulse from the Pulsar Droids, especially if you're intentionally lagging behind during the first or second changeovers to increase the odds of drawing any Rail Shots during the swap.

I'm out of time for the moment, so I'll append this at some point (or someone else can) with TFB HM data and/or EC NiM changes. I'm leaving out EC and KP for the time being because they're probably not a major concern of progression raiders, and even the high DTPS of KP NiM is not a detriment to clearing it easily.
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ThePasserby's Avatar


ThePasserby
01.06.2013 , 05:56 PM | #13
Thanks for the list, Omophorus. I've been on some of the boss fights you mentioned and didn't know which cooldowns would be useful. Maybe now I can help save the healers some resources.

todorovh's Avatar


todorovh
01.28.2013 , 03:44 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Altogether, assassins have 4 defensive cooldowns: Deflection (weapon damage), Force Shroud (tech damage), Overload Saber (lockout-free medpack), and Force Cloak. I use Overload Saber fairly aggressively, and I'm always surprised at assassin/shadow tanks who don't. Force Cloak is another uncommon one, but primarily due to the fact that it debuffs healing. It has to be used very carefully with full knowledge of what you're about to do to your party. I use it absolutely every time I tank NiM Kephess (twice in the same fight if my co-tank dies in the last phase). Similarly, I use it every time on NiM Toth and Zorn (to reset the medpack lockout), fairly frequently on HM Dread Guard, and every time on HM Writhing Horror (to avoid pulling off my co-tank at the start). Also, there's all the situational uses when you need to get someone up and the battle rez is down.

No question though, the bread and butter is Deflection and Force Shroud. Use and abuse the heck out of those cooldowns. A huge part of what separates good assassin tanks from great ones is an active knowledge of the specific fight and the timing of relevant damage (e.g. Force Shroud right before Savage Wounding is applied on NiM Kephess).
do you have a video of using force cloak as a CD ? as i see it there is no upside to using it .. you drop aggro, so someone else gets hit ( and not the tank ? ), then you cannot taunt for a few seconds because you cannot be healed ( so someone else is still getting hammered ) ... and that is to reset your medpack ? which you shouldn't need in the first place ?

now Kephess specifically is a different story .. its not as much about using it as a CD as it helps with too slow/ too fast taunts from your other tank.

rob_y's Avatar


rob_y
01.28.2013 , 04:18 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by todorovh View Post
then you cannot taunt for a few seconds because you cannot be healed
Don't have a Shadow, but doesn't the 100% heal reduction disappear as soon as you take some action / come out of stealth?
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BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
01.28.2013 , 04:46 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by rob_y View Post
Don't have a Shadow, but doesn't the 100% heal reduction disappear as soon as you take some action / come out of stealth?
Correct. Once you drop stealth you lose the debuff.
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slafko's Avatar


slafko
01.29.2013 , 08:44 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
Another useful time to use Resilience/Shroud is immediately upon engaging Baradium Bombers. If you start with a Shroud+Taunt, you can nearly always force the first Rocket Blast onto yourself and negate it. After that point, the BB is probably chain-stunned until dead, but avoiding the first Rocket Blast can be tricky.
Full offense is the way to go on the Bombers. Force Pull the bomber in, Force stun, Shadow strike, Shadow strike. Interrupt. Spinning kick, Shadow strike, Shadow strike. Having 9% in Nerve Wracking really helps killing those guys fast. Same goes for the Trandoshan leader guy.

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
01.29.2013 , 09:43 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
Full offense is the way to go on the Bombers. Force Pull the bomber in, Force stun, Shadow strike, Shadow strike. Interrupt. Spinning kick, Shadow strike, Shadow strike. Having 9% in Nerve Wracking really helps killing those guys fast. Same goes for the Trandoshan leader guy.
No argument, but even so doing frequently leads to a single Rocket Blast going off for 10k+ damage. Popping Shroud just before pulling blanks that off. It's not like there's a time (other than 3rd bomber) when you'd need Shroud back up again before it would be off CD, so no good reason not to. 3rd bomber obviously you'd just tough it out to have Shroud available for the first Empowered Slash (unless you have 2 Sins and the other is going to be eating it).
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"This is why we don't bring Assassin tanks"
GM of <Proper Villains> of The Ebon Hawk

Sivar's Avatar


Sivar
01.31.2013 , 06:37 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Altogether, assassins have 4 defensive cooldowns: Deflection (weapon damage), Force Shroud (tech damage), Overload Saber (lockout-free medpack), and Force Cloak. I use Overload Saber fairly aggressively, and I'm always surprised at assassin/shadow tanks who don't. Force Cloak is another uncommon one, but primarily due to the fact that it debuffs healing. It has to be used very carefully with full knowledge of what you're about to do to your party. I use it absolutely every time I tank NiM Kephess (twice in the same fight if my co-tank dies in the last phase). Similarly, I use it every time on NiM Toth and Zorn (to reset the medpack lockout), fairly frequently on HM Dread Guard, and every time on HM Writhing Horror (to avoid pulling off my co-tank at the start). Also, there's all the situational uses when you need to get someone up and the battle rez is down.

No question though, the bread and butter is Deflection and Force Shroud. Use and abuse the heck out of those cooldowns. A huge part of what separates good assassin tanks from great ones is an active knowledge of the specific fight and the timing of relevant damage (e.g. Force Shroud right before Savage Wounding is applied on NiM Kephess).
I have to disagree with you on the Force Cloak, in no way does it qualify as a defensive CD. You can count it as an advantage/exploit to get a medpack CD back or to circumvent the BR limit by doing an out of combat rez all you want, but it does not provide you with a buff to help you immediately relieve incoming pressure without compromising the raid itself. Listing Force Cloak as something good to use is exactly the line of thought that got Assassin tanks a bad name in my old guild and throughout my old server because some ******s thought it would be a good idea to actively use it (some serious and some because they thought it was funny)....

The rest though I agree with, the three CDs of the Assassin are Force Shroud, Deflection and OS with the main short CD is Dark Ward, and expert use of FS and Deflection makes for incredible results compared to the other tank classes in the same situation.
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ckoneful's Avatar


ckoneful
01.31.2013 , 10:40 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
I have to disagree with you on the Force Cloak, in no way does it qualify as a defensive CD. You can count it as an advantage/exploit to get a medpack CD back or to circumvent the BR limit by doing an out of combat rez all you want, but it does not provide you with a buff to help you immediately relieve incoming pressure without compromising the raid itself. Listing Force Cloak as something good to use is exactly the line of thought that got Assassin tanks a bad name in my old guild and throughout my old server because some ******s thought it would be a good idea to actively use it (some serious and some because they thought it was funny)....

The rest though I agree with, the two CDs of the Assassin are Force Shroud and Deflection and the main short CD is Dark Ward, and expert use of the main two makes for incredible results compared to the other tank classes in the same situation.
You're missing Battle Readiness(and the Assassin equivalent. 10% HP is nothing to scoff at, or the added bonus to it as well. It's not as powerful at the other 2 but it's still quite nice.

Personally I love Force Speed more than the leaps as well, since I can "kite" a boss if a healer dies or something is happening that they can't focus on me.
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