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Your take on The Sith Order and the Jedi Order!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Your take on The Sith Order and the Jedi Order!

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.05.2013 , 01:03 PM | #151
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
most of the things you pointed out are similar/the same to countries before Third Reich and to those that were functioning during reign of the Third Reich, with exception for 1k reich and colour scheme - and everything thqat just for better sales. Nothing really more original about it,

whole shortcut "nazi" is wrong and by all means ( but of course I like very much war machinery of the Reich, one of the most beautiful uniforms and tank models ) I do not support socialism in any form, if Sith Empire was socialistic then I would probably be completely uniterested in story. Other points you mentioned are completely fine and required for a strong, advancing country that seeks to further it borders. Sith Empire does not trust outsiders and all kind of aliens which is natural and fine ( it is not inside extermination based on ethnicity and relligion ).. You all like real life examples, but by that example you should mention that people of the Reich were happy with its course ah and Third Reich wasnt militaristic, if you look closer, its a myth. There wasnt also, what will be probably shocking to you antisemitism - there was anti-talmudic behaviour, but many of those things are currently forgotten and changed to sate those who like one sided history. and by all means I dont think that WW II origins or its aftermath are exactly place for this forums. but it is a huge exxageration to say that Sith Empire = Third Reich
I'm basically saying that authoritarian rule leads to atrocities such as the Holocaust. Which you seem to think is a good thing but I disagree, I see it as the unnecessary slaughter of innocents for the single purpose of self inflating those committing it. You also must understand that your points are baseless. The Nazi's where militaristic, how do you think they waged war on the rest of the world? Please back up your rash statements (like the Nazi's were not antisemitic despite killing 6 million Jews and being governed by a known antisemite) with evidence. And its not really a huge exaggeration to say the Sith Empire was grossly similar to the Third Reich, I just proved that. The fact they are both authoritarian dictatorships already puts them on the same plane. And yes they are similar to other nations other than Nazi Germany, correct. Such as the USSR and the Roman Empire, but guess what they all had in common? They wrought murder, mayhem and suffering on their people and eventually collapsed.

And I'm afraid it does have a place in the forums. As Star Wars is heavily based on historical events, heavily based. Not to mention the fact that you seem to think Lucas gives a coloured view of authoritarian dictatorships, so I have to look elsewhere and make comparison.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.05.2013 , 01:28 PM | #152
@Maaurin. You make interesting points and I agree with your thoughts on democracy and that. Monarchies can work, but such rule centralizing powers in a single figure is dangerous. But on the topic of the Force:

I get the idea you agree that the Force seeks some form of balance between light and dark in the galaxy, but just because this is so doesn't mean we should accept it, for the dark side harms the galaxy in ways beyond the Force. And I would agree.

To be honest I'm not really sure what a Je'daii Order would entail, would partially accepting the dark side lead to suffering? I do not think so. Much like the Father the Jedi would be dedicated to harmony, peace and balance. They would be benevolent in nature but also willing to be practical, and make sacrifices if need be. Take a look at the Je'daii Code:

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no fear; there is power.
I am the heart of the Force.
I am the revealing fire of light.
I am the mystery of darkness
In balance with chaos and harmony,
Immortal in the Force.

The first tenet is the same as that of the Jedi Order. The Je'daii would uphold knowledge just as the Jedi do, and provide wisdom to the Republic and other nations that strive for peace. It's the second power that could be dangerous, the Je'daii reject fear but embrace power. I don't really think I understand this code enough to comment. But power can mean many things, power in the Force, power through knowledge. I believe Je'daii can possess power without wanting power over others.

I'm at a crossroads here. The benefits of the Jedi are they are clearly protectors of peace and justice, dedicating to serving the Republic and defending the weak. But they attract threats from the Sith and others and bring them to the Republic. And they are caught in an eternal conflict with the Sith. The Je'daii Order are in balance with the Force, and so war between Force users is minimal. But they are not there to protect the Republic, it must learn to protect itself. They serve only as advisers.

I'm still leaning toward the Je'daii Order, perhaps combined with the ideals of the Baran Do Sages. A non-militant (that would be for the best) organisation that offers advice and instruction to institutes willing to uphold the peace. There primary purpose is to study the Force and use to guide their decisions and fuel the wisdom they give to the galaxy. Meditation is their primary purpose. And they quell Sith threats before they can begin. Non-military here is important. An organisation that does not focus heavily or at all on combat, and using the Force as a weapon is unlikely to cause students to grasp at power and want to dominate others by Force. Because unlike the Jedi they are completely dedicated to peace and pacifism. Pacifist force users are unlikely to turn Sith. Think of them as almost a secret society, dedicating to keeping peace in the galaxy, and working behind the scenes to ensure this happens.

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 01:30 PM | #153
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I'm basically saying that authoritarian rule leads to atrocities such as the Holocaust. Which you seem to think is a good thing but I disagree, I see it as the unnecessary slaughter of innocents for the single purpose of self inflating those committing it. You also must understand that your points are baseless. The Nazi's where militaristic, how do you think they waged war on the rest of the world? Please back up your rash statements (like the Nazi's were not antisemitic despite killing 6 million Jews and being governed by a known antisemite) with evidence. And its not really a huge exaggeration to say the Sith Empire was grossly similar to the Third Reich, I just proved that. The fact they are both authoritarian dictatorships already puts them on the same plane. And yes they are similar to other nations other than Nazi Germany, correct. Such as the USSR and the Roman Empire, but guess what they all had in common? They wrought murder, mayhem and suffering on their people and eventually collapsed.

And I'm afraid it does have a place in the forums. As Star Wars is heavily based on historical events, heavily based. Not to mention the fact that you seem to think Lucas gives a coloured view of authoritarian dictatorships, so I have to look elsewhere and make comparison.
people like to mention Shoah ( I dont like word holocaust used for it as it had better meaning before ) but also they forget that the easiest way to escapr from being killed was just a change of faith, Jews who became christians were living in the Third Reich and were never ever killed althou the same rule didnt apply for USA and their treatment of Japanese who could be christians, muslims or believers of judaism and still they were kept in camps. They were not militaristic, number of military equipment was much lesser than that of France, GB or other countries, they were simply a good soldiers, of course, near war numbers gew but it wasnt an explosion of arms. And if you would like to say that their every day was dedicated to militarism then it is true for every country of that period with is young paramilitaristic organisations. 6 million is a number that came from imagination as there was no record and it all came from testimony of those who were imprisoned and even employees of Aushwitz museum question those numbers, revisionists say it was max one million and most probably much more less, other say that there was no holocaust as a form of a selective extermination ( and in my country it is illegal to undermine it, funny thing ) so with that I must agree as lamb, Adolf Hitler many times said that he has nothing against Jewish people but their talmudic rituals as they were keeping themselves together without assimilating with others, they were alienating themselves and if you ever read Talmud then you would know why.. Antisemitism is a very good way to manipulate people into believing that the case was in people while it was in their relligion.

Same plane is not enough. comparing Third Reich and USSR is also bad. Third Reich cared about its citizens while USSR munched them into pieces, thanks to Lenin and then Stalin. Roman Empire, that is a problematic question, for sure Roman Empire provided many civilisation into many barbaric countries and allowed their citizens to lead rather smooth life. Even Slavery in Rome was very much restricted and described by law, but Roman Empire and slavery, it its another subject as slavery is not exactly economically profitable in longer run. Mayhem, murder and everything else, it is normal, common, people die, conflict is a natural state. But all of those, Roman Empire and USSR didnt fail because of their bad people treatment but because of economics and many more outside threats and what is funny lack of army in the Roman Empire case

of course that Lucas gave totally coloured vision.
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.05.2013 , 02:15 PM | #154
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
people like to mention Shoah ( I dont like word holocaust used for it as it had better meaning before ) but also they forget that the easiest way to escapr from being killed was just a change of faith, Jews who became christians were living in the Third Reich and were never ever killed...
That's simply not true. The Nazies defined "jew" as a genetic way. something like "jews blood" and stuff.

Changing religion was only an option for "half Jews" = people with two jewish grandparents. And towards the end of the war they also thought about killing them all too.

Sorry for off-topic.

Edit: Oh, and Adolf Hitler said nothing against jews? Seriously. I'll dig up some quotes.. will only take a few minutes.

There are many other things wrong with what you wrote and I'm pretty sure your posts will get deleted soon.

Edit2: yeah, here you go http://www.mosaisk.com/auschwitz/Ado...t-the-Jews.php , I still hate to write about such things in a Star Wars forum.

So to everyone: 99% of what this guy says about the Third Reich is wrong.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
01.05.2013 , 02:24 PM | #155
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Your ignorance baffles me. How you could possibly think Darth Plagueis (ironically a Sith Lord and former master of the Emperor) is a simpleton I have no idea. And how you can possibly think that building a huge massive super-weapon that blows up planets is a good thing baffles me also. Its just a big fat blob that screams "blow me up, I represent all the repression, oppression, waste of resources and evil of the Empire" and what happened? It was blown sky high along with the rest of the inefficient Empire. You also obviously have a very inflated and misguided view of the capabilities of humans, when most of them are far less intelligent than the likes of the Gree, the Colicoids, the Muun and the Bothans (you for example). But that's OK as the Empire have learned the mistakes they've made in the past and are actually attempting to put aside their restrictive xenophobia and accept more aliens into their ranks - another step closer to enlightenment.

And for the record all Sith are power hungry. It's in the Sith Code: "through power I gain victory". Baras would be followed by a hundred other Sith and a hundred more. The Emperor's Wrath can put down as many of them as he likes. But that's not going to fill the vacuum is it? A vacuum that will eventually consume the Sith Empire entirely. Or the Republic will simply destroy them, they are after all losing the war.

You've also failed to tell me what the Galactic Empire did for the galaxy that was beneficial. That is because the answer is nothing. Nothing whatsoever, they didn't even bring peace. Turn your attention to the Galactic Civil War.

And finally, your hardly giving good publicity for the Empire. Your simply proving me right. That the Empire breeds selfish people who don't care about the lives or importance of others and are happy to go around killing people and committing mass genocide to maintain there own self-importance and power. But alas they are doomed to be toppled by the people they oppress and so will forever be heralded as how not to run a galaxy.
^^ That.

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 02:31 PM | #156
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
That's simply not true. The Nazies defined "jew" as a genetic way. something like "jews blood" and stuff.

Changing religion was only an option for "half Jews" = people with two jewish grandparents. And towards the end of the war they also thought about killing them all too.

Sorry for off-topic.
well, few modern jewish docs say the same, that there are specific jewish dna and even jewish race althou in a different way then you said. well yes of course that Germans of those times said that Jews were inferior to Aryan race, just like any other but they didnt exactly plan on eliminating them, there is a lot of propaganda do it, one would thought that with time people gonna take those curtains down, but with every year there even more myths about evil nazis and their ways.

in fact every Jew could become christian, altho not everyone could become catholic, thats why they clinged to baptist church and were never sent to camp - dont you think that it looks "too good" for the sake of making holocaust a business ? near the end of war, evil germans thought that it will be cool to expire them all. sorry, I understand that grim stories are favourable and victimisation is very cool for public face but jews were no more victims than polish, russians, gypsies, czech or even homosexuals who were sent to camps.

and about killing, another great stuff, there was no gas rooms in any of those camps, in it is currently viewed as historical fact also quite not "hot" in news. there was no gas rooms in any of those, I mean gas chambers, I guess thats correct term. I dont know how Auberes grandfather went to something that didnt exist. Jews, like any other nationality were of course dying from lack of food and difficult encironment and for that thing alone people can claim that germans allowed them to die but holocaust as intentionally killing ? if there was no gas chambers?
http://rense.com/general53/aauz.htm

dont forget about Zionist Party operating within Third Reich

thats why I dont see to further seek similarities between Reich and Sith Empire, much better to make it similar to Roman Empire just for the sake of argument and preventions of "naziiiiiii".

as a person who favours Sith and their Empire I see order and stability within its ranks
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
01.05.2013 , 02:33 PM | #157
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I'm basically saying that authoritarian rule leads to atrocities such as the Holocaust. Which you seem to think is a good thing but I disagree, I see it as the unnecessary slaughter of innocents for the single purpose of self inflating those committing it. You also must understand that your points are baseless. The Nazi's where militaristic, how do you think they waged war on the rest of the world? Please back up your rash statements (like the Nazi's were not antisemitic despite killing 6 million Jews and being governed by a known antisemite) with evidence. And its not really a huge exaggeration to say the Sith Empire was grossly similar to the Third Reich, I just proved that. The fact they are both authoritarian dictatorships already puts them on the same plane. And yes they are similar to other nations other than Nazi Germany, correct. Such as the USSR and the Roman Empire, but guess what they all had in common? They wrought murder, mayhem and suffering on their people and eventually collapsed.

And I'm afraid it does have a place in the forums. As Star Wars is heavily based on historical events, heavily based. Not to mention the fact that you seem to think Lucas gives a coloured view of authoritarian dictatorships, so I have to look elsewhere and make comparison.
I've read nearly everything you and Aurbere said to this guy and you guys are completely right. It gives me a headache reading the ignorant and blind points made here by him. My advice is to give it up. Nothing you say is gonna change his mind. But I'm happy at least somebody tried to teach this anti-democracy guy a thing or two. My hat is off to you and Aurbere.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.05.2013 , 02:37 PM | #158
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
people like to mention Shoah ( I dont like word holocaust used for it as it had better meaning before ) but also they forget that the easiest way to escapr from being killed was just a change of faith, Jews who became christians were living in the Third Reich and were never ever killed althou the same rule didnt apply for USA and their treatment of Japanese who could be christians, muslims or believers of judaism and still they were kept in camps. They were not militaristic, number of military equipment was much lesser than that of France, GB or other countries, they were simply a good soldiers, of course, near war numbers gew but it wasnt an explosion of arms. And if you would like to say that their every day was dedicated to militarism then it is true for every country of that period with is young paramilitaristic organisations. 6 million is a number that came from imagination as there was no record and it all came from testimony of those who were imprisoned and even employees of Aushwitz museum question those numbers, revisionists say it was max one million and most probably much more less, other say that there was no holocaust as a form of a selective extermination ( and in my country it is illegal to undermine it, funny thing ) so with that I must agree as lamb, Adolf Hitler many times said that he has nothing against Jewish people but their talmudic rituals as they were keeping themselves together without assimilating with others, they were alienating themselves and if you ever read Talmud then you would know why.. Antisemitism is a very good way to manipulate people into believing that the case was in people while it was in their relligion.

Same plane is not enough. comparing Third Reich and USSR is also bad. Third Reich cared about its citizens while USSR munched them into pieces, thanks to Lenin and then Stalin. Roman Empire, that is a problematic question, for sure Roman Empire provided many civilisation into many barbaric countries and allowed their citizens to lead rather smooth life. Even Slavery in Rome was very much restricted and described by law, but Roman Empire and slavery, it its another subject as slavery is not exactly economically profitable in longer run. Mayhem, murder and everything else, it is normal, common, people die, conflict is a natural state. But all of those, Roman Empire and USSR didnt fail because of their bad people treatment but because of economics and many more outside threats and what is funny lack of army in the Roman Empire case

of course that Lucas gave totally coloured vision.
Have you read Mein Kampf? Hitler openly attacks Jews. And I don't care how many died, I don't care if they only discriminated against certain Jews, the fact it lots of people were killed for baseless, ridiculous reasons. They were not a threat and yet they were exterminated? Why? Because Germany needed a scapegoat, something to direct there hate upon, a collective hate that will make them feel strong and unified, and make them loyal to the Nazis. And that's my point. In authoritarian dictatorships the leaders are obsessed with holding onto power and feel a need to control the people in anyway they can. So they use fear, hate etc etc. It happened in the USSR, it happened in Nazi Germany, Mao's China, the Roman Empire. It doesn't matter if there socialist, nationalist, like their people, hate their people, don't give a damn. The fact remains that when you focus so much power in a single individual, they abuse it, and the result it always mass genocide and suffering. Governments have killed more people than anything or anyone ever else has, and authoritarian dictatorships are always the main culprits. What is the purpose of a government that has know care for life other than themselves? What good can they bring ever? None.

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.05.2013 , 02:41 PM | #159
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
I've read nearly everything you and Aurbere said to this guy and you guys are completely right. It gives me a headache reading the ignorant and blind points made here by him. My advice is to give it up. Nothing you say is gonna change his mind. But I'm happy at least somebody tried to teach this anti-democracy guy a thing or two. My hat is off to you and Aurbere.
they didnt say anything spectacular, only that Sith are fighting so they will collapse, they are selfish etc. but in fact, only selfish people can build great things as they improve their own scenery. What they taught me is that a sentiment and being naive with "golden heart" is exactly what leads to weakness and decay of power. Galactic Empire was doomed from the beginning, Sith Empire, steered by Bioware has much more chances of survival.

Jedi, what are they doing, guardians of corruption that cannot fight it because of their code and council that is clearly delusional
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.05.2013 , 02:45 PM | #160
well, lets take the only point of your post which is true:

Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
sorry, I understand that grim stories are favourable and victimisation is very cool for public face but jews were no more victims than polish, russians, gypsies, czech or even homosexuals who were sent to camps.
so, other peoples were enslaved and killed too. I fail to understand how that makes the Third Reich better. Actually, it makes it worse.

I really, really hope that not all those who support the Sith have real life opinions like you do.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall