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Time for a PvP Fix

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fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
01.03.2013 , 05:13 PM | #321
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkallex View Post
Some ppl are just staring at the tree and miss the whole wood as we say in my country.
I wasn't talking here about tank classes pulling out that dmg in tank specs BUT what I was trying to mention is that those classes have dps trees which,when chosen,can pull out more dmg than pure dps classes and still keep some of the basic reductions/avoidances/utilities of their main class.So something has to change on that...either being more vulnerable or do less dps.
That's true to a degree- but snipers/marauders aren't any worse off for defensive ability or damage than any tank class in dps gear.

That said- for juggernauts, CC immunity after a leap needs to be put high enough into the tree that a smash jugg can't get it by simply sacrificing force crush- that's a big issue right now, that not only can they deal 8k aoe crit smashes regularly- but since they're immune to all CC while they do it there's literally zero way to defend yourself/counter it.

Having it attainable with 12 points makes it so- yes, you must sacrifice crush... but for CC immunity/20% bonus mitigation for a third of the time- including the most important times/when people instinctively want/need to CC you after a leap- well worth it.


Other than that though... PTs for example are extremely fragile in pyrotech spec- much more so than marauders.

Not to say a lot of these classes couldn't afford to lose a bit of damage anyway.


I think- as sorcs are the class that takes by far the most damage since they have no mitigation- they should get the benefit of avoiding mitigation in turn. Sorcs have no armour penetration, yet almost all our abilities are mitigated by armour- in other games, mages/warlocks get the lightest armour but in turn their attacks deal damage which isn't mitigated.

Ours not only is mitigated- but due to a lack of penetration and heavy reliance on energy damage, we're actually one of the most mitigated classes in the game.

How does that make any sense at all?

What do we have that avoids mitigation? Affliction does, but that's very small damage. Creep terror does- but again, small damage, in a full spec that often isn't used... and it's main purpose isn't the dot, but the root. Thundering Blast does- but it's at the top of lightning, which isn't used as a pure tree, period, in pvp.

So where does that leave us? It leaves us with death field- so our mitigation is a 3k, 5k on crit 3 target aoe on a 15 second CD- that's our only armour penetration.


Truth is- crushing should be internal. All lightning abilities should be elemental. That alone wouldn't do much if anything to our damage in operations, while making us able to be far more viable against tanks and marauders in pvp- if we have to deal with having almost no armour, we should benefit by being able to penetrate other's armour in turn.

Or- in lightning have Subversion also grant 20% armour penetration/stack.

Crushing should definitely be internal damage at the least... we're the one class that has to deal with dots that don't penetrate did you know that?

Sniper dots build- lethality, all internal, and even cull does extra internal damage.
Marauder dots build- annihilation, all internal.
PT pyrotech- all elemental, and even rail shot which isn't gets near full armour penetration... and then flame thrower, flame burst, etc....
I can't really speak for ops/mercs- but I think you get the picture.


Sorc madness- two very weak damage dots (one of which isn't in most specs) with internal, and an aoe internal. No other way to avoid being mitigated, period.

Very disappointing.

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
01.03.2013 , 08:02 PM | #322
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
Make camo simply a 100% threat drop that has no use in pvp- most other dps classes have a similar threat drop that has zero use in pvp- put camo stealth instead as a high tree talent in annihilation.
Well, camo also works (in raids) as a "you're standing in the wrong place and need to get out quickly but predation isn't available just now" button, so turning it into a pure threat drop is still boning them a bit in pve. I really think eliminating obfuscate's the ticket to putting carnage right where it needs to be vs everything else.


Quote:
One of the biggest problems is that marauders get all the utility at baseline that almost everyone else has to spec into to get only part of it.

Whereas sorcs are the opposite.
No argument there. The DPS pvp hybrid would be an actual pvp tree in a warrior class, rather than something that sorcs sacrifice damage to frankenstein together.

And unstoppable needs to be put in the freaking top of the tank tree for juggs, not low in the vengeance tree. That's been on jugg tank wishlists for...forever.


Quote:
Mobility- other classes can move while using almost all their abilities, have speed bonuses that are in good trees, have gap closers on shorter CDs than force speed, that are harder/impossible to counter whereas force speed can be countered often by 2 or more abilities per class. Meaning- you cannot get away, and if you do it is effortless to catch back up for your pursuer.
Eh. There are enough gap creators (at least for DPS) at our disposal, that we can stagger them per their own gap closer and get away unless the enemy has roots and lots of mobility (carnage) or control immunity (juggs, tankassins). Annimara's, in particular, will foolishly use their gap closer as a rage builder against someone kiting them, which can be used against them.


Quote:
Thing is- we've been playing at such a handicap for so long, that if we were ever balanced up to the state of PTs, sins, juggs and snipers we'd look rediculous... and if marauders were ever balanced down to the state of those classes they'd all be in for a rude awakening when suddenly 90% of them suck.
Yeah, you're probably right. If someone continues to dps with a sorc in the 50 bracket, they're probably way more skilled than the average guy in the field or, dunno, crazy or something.

wwkingms's Avatar


wwkingms
01.03.2013 , 11:49 PM | #323
i still like hybrid build most but my thoughts are

Full Lightning : pretty well balance, thundering blast should do slightly more dmg and its activation time reduced, also the high tier talent which improves crit dmg for lightning strike and thundering blast should also apply to shock. Like snipers our knockback should be baseline 2s root. Backlash redesigned to give 3s of cc immunity to the player as the bubble breaks OR a bubble breaking on damage makes your next sprint activate without triggering a cooldown. this tree needs to create distance to get casts off. i generally feel force charge should not interrupt as well

Madness : relying on noble sacrifice is ridiculous, Madness needs better force management, the dots should tick harder and faster, and deathmark should have 20 stacks and affect force lightning. Crushing darkness should be instant or activation time drastically reduced. a 2second activation basically says dont plan on casting this spell outside of wrath. Also possibly make deathfield/shock and lightning strike do 5% more dmg per dot on the target. Deathfield should restore 75 force per target hit ( or something along these lines to help)


Sorcs in generally NEED a RANGED force free attack...

we already get hit harder than any other class and casting noble sacrifice in a fight is basically a death sentence if your a dps sorc
NIHIL

THE BASTION

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
01.04.2013 , 06:02 AM | #324
Quote:
Thing is- we've been playing at such a handicap for so long, that if we were ever balanced up to the state of PTs, sins, juggs and snipers we'd look rediculous... and if marauders were ever balanced down to the state of those classes they'd all be in for a rude awakening when suddenly 90% of them suck.
Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
Yeah, you're probably right. If someone continues to dps with a sorc in the 50 bracket, they're probably way more skilled than the average guy in the field or, dunno, crazy or something.
Well we're still beating our heads against a brick wall trying to get some devs to buff our class.... so maybe we're all crazy.

But yeah, it would be nice to think lolrauders will be nerfed to a sensible place in the PvP arena and we get the needed buffs to damage and a decent defensive cooldown.... one can hope..

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
01.04.2013 , 07:52 PM | #325
One other thing I noticed that we could really use something better on.

Mara/juggs get armouring for vindicator gear that gives '+10% damage for 5 seconds after force charge'- that is at the least, a 10% damage buff that can be kept up one third of the time, if not more.

Not only that- it's one that can and is used to boost the damage of the smash even further.

Now look at our bonuses, and stop me when you hear me say a bonus that is as good as 10% bonus damage for 5 seconds every 15 seconds or shorter.

Stalkers-
2- increase range of force slow and jolt by 5m (pretty useless)
4- Increase recklessness charge by 1 and reduce CD by 15 seconds (not bad)

Force-Mystic
2- Reduce static barrier lock out by 3 seconds (good, mostly because of the stun bubble- still nowhere near as good as a 10% damage boost)
4- Consumption restores 3% of max health over 6seconds (useless- you're taking up to 15% of your max health in damage to use it- with no way to mitigate it- this is like a gentle breeze)

Force-Master
2- Reduce CD of crushing by 1.5 seconds, damage heals you for 0.5% max health. (So CD is 13.5 rather than 15 seconds... not even close to the marauder's bonus- you end up with a hot that restores 3% of your health... for me that's 600 health every 15 seconds- sorry, not worth mentioning)
4- +5m to jolt/shock range (again, this is useless- you may occassionally be able to interrupt a healer who'd otherwise be two steps out of range- big deal)

All 3 sets have one bonus which I'd consider utterly useless- and the other one in all cases is just 'all right'.


Now- yes, the 2 set bonus for mara in this case is useless- and it's decent for juggs- but the 4 set bonus... 10% damage increase up a third of the time? That's like popping an adrenal every time you leap, it's absurd.



We need much better set bonuses... for example

Force-Master
2- Force lightning can be used while moving
4- Reduce Crushing Darkness CD by 3 seconds, while active increase all damage a sorc does on that target by 10%

Force-Mystic
2- Reduce static barrier lock out by 5 seconds, while a static barrier is on you, you cannot be interrupted
4- Resurgence increases your healing on that target by 10%


Might seem a bit strong- but compared to 10% bonus damage on all attacks against everyone... yeah- once again, another case of BW playing favourites to their precious warriors.

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
01.04.2013 , 08:47 PM | #326
Force lightning while moving is definitely OP, the other set bonus ideas aren't bad though. It is just plain sad how bad the 4 set force master set bonus is
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
01.05.2013 , 02:03 AM | #327
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
One other thing I noticed that we could really use something better on.

Mara/juggs get armouring for vindicator gear that gives '+10% damage for 5 seconds after force charge'- that is at the least, a 10% damage buff that can be kept up one third of the time, if not more.

Not only that- it's one that can and is used to boost the damage of the smash even further.

Now look at our bonuses, and stop me when you hear me say a bonus that is as good as 10% bonus damage for 5 seconds every 15 seconds or shorter.

Stalkers-
2- increase range of force slow and jolt by 5m (pretty useless)
4- Increase recklessness charge by 1 and reduce CD by 15 seconds (not bad)

Force-Mystic
2- Reduce static barrier lock out by 3 seconds (good, mostly because of the stun bubble- still nowhere near as good as a 10% damage boost)
4- Consumption restores 3% of max health over 6seconds (useless- you're taking up to 15% of your max health in damage to use it- with no way to mitigate it- this is like a gentle breeze)

Force-Master
2- Reduce CD of crushing by 1.5 seconds, damage heals you for 0.5% max health. (So CD is 13.5 rather than 15 seconds... not even close to the marauder's bonus- you end up with a hot that restores 3% of your health... for me that's 600 health every 15 seconds- sorry, not worth mentioning)
4- +5m to jolt/shock range (again, this is useless- you may occassionally be able to interrupt a healer who'd otherwise be two steps out of range- big deal)

All 3 sets have one bonus which I'd consider utterly useless- and the other one in all cases is just 'all right'.


Now- yes, the 2 set bonus for mara in this case is useless- and it's decent for juggs- but the 4 set bonus... 10% damage increase up a third of the time? That's like popping an adrenal every time you leap, it's absurd.



We need much better set bonuses... for example

Force-Master
2- Force lightning can be used while moving
4- Reduce Crushing Darkness CD by 3 seconds, while active increase all damage a sorc does on that target by 10%

Force-Mystic
2- Reduce static barrier lock out by 5 seconds, while a static barrier is on you, you cannot be interrupted
4- Resurgence increases your healing on that target by 10%


Might seem a bit strong- but compared to 10% bonus damage on all attacks against everyone... yeah- once again, another case of BW playing favourites to their precious warriors.
What about something like this

Taking damage causes a proc that reduces damage by 15% for five seconds. Cannot occur more than once every 30 seconds.

wwkingms's Avatar


wwkingms
01.07.2013 , 03:48 AM | #328
Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
What about something like this

Taking damage causes a proc that reduces damage by 15% for five seconds. Cannot occur more than once every 30 seconds.
i mean marauders, who are tunnel visioned killing machines basically have 30% dmg reduction for 30 seconds every minute..

we could use something like this certainly
NIHIL

THE BASTION

Devinia-Hex's Avatar


Devinia-Hex
01.07.2013 , 02:54 PM | #329
What is funny is people on any other area other than the class forum think we are fine and don't need a buff because we have a bubble. They have no idea how badly our damage is nor what we sacrifice to get limited cc all they know is we have bubble stun and it is annoying to them.

If we ever get equal damage to other classes people would cry nerf because we have been gimped for so long. Even if we were given some of the baseline assasin abilities like increase to endurance and shock damage. Reduction in cooldown to death field 3 seconds and bonus to damage by 20% like 1st tier rage spec gets to smash . Little things like that would go a long way for our dps.
Dashara Bergen Colony Devinia Hex The Bastion

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
01.07.2013 , 04:40 PM | #330
My personal sorcerer class rework list.

Baseline Changes
-Force speed removes and makes you immune to slows/roots
-Melee attacks benefit from Willpower
-Proc type abilites in your talents such as "chain shock" benefit but no longer consume recklessness
-Whirlwind is instant cast baseline
-Recklessness has a 1.2 minute cooldown now
-Add drain life (kotor ability) Deals 1.8k internal damage healing for 50% of the damge done. Single target, 25 meter range instant cast. Damage increased by 20% against targets with less than 30% health. (45 second cooldown)
FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T PLAY KOTOR

========== http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_drain =============

-Veiled Darkness- Increases Defense Rating by 30% for 6 seconds; increases force regeneration by 40% for ten seconds. Any single target damage done during the defense rating increase is reduced by 30%.
---------------------------------------
Spec modifiers

Full Madness
-Crushing Darkness DOT portion is now internal damage, additionally it increases Dot critical chance on that target by 5% for the DOT duration.
-Overload adds a 30% slow to targets hit; lasts 5 seconds
-Lightning strike cast via wrath does 25% damage more damage in addition to wrath's damage increase, also reduces the cooldown of force warp by 4 seconds when wrath is consumed this way. (see below)
-Crushing darkness ticks have a 25% chance to make your next consumption cost no health and increase your health received by 100% from parasitism for 7 seconds. DOT damage done during this time will not be reduced by Veiled Darkness. (45 second internal cooldown)
-Thrash now has a 100% chance to make your next force slow root the target for 1 second and deal a low amount of damage over 5 seconds.
-6 tier ability Force Warp - Increases the rate at which your current dots tick by 30% (does not effect dots used after this move. Makes Force lightning cost no force for the next 8 seconds. (1.5 minute cooldown)

Full Lightning.
-Bubble Stun removed
-Lightning strike is now cast-able while moving but no longer has 35 meter range through lightning spire.
-Polarity shift is now a 1.5 minute cool-down and also reduces global cooldown duration by .3 seconds.
-Forked Lightning removed
-Lightning storm proc reworked. Lightning storm has a 40% chance to activate off of shock and thundering blast making your next Force storm instant cast and require no channel.Chain lightning is given a 15 second cooldown but is made to be instant cast. Force Storm cannot be casted while the channel-less force storm is active.
-Your lightning strikes grant Devastation reducing the cast time of your next crushing darkness by .25 seconds stacking up to 4 times
-Casting Crushing darkness grants impunity making your next thundering blast cast immune to pulls, knock-backs and interrupts.
-Thundering Blast will knock a target back 15 meters and root for 1 second if the target is within 6 meters of the caster.
- (6th teir) Force Storm has a 10% chance per target hit to grant empowered granting the following effect to the next move used (20 second intenal cooldown)
===Your next shock is a guaranteed critical hit
===Chain lightning gains 40% armor penetration
===Increases the amount healed by your next unnatural preservation by 30%
===Thrash counts as a tech attack dealing an additional 1500 internal damage and granting impunity
-Electric binding's root doesn't break from affliction damage till the 3 second and targets hit by overload are knocked back an additional 5 meters. All other damage still breaks the root after 2 seconds
-You receive 30% less damage while stunned
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-