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I have no problems with PUGs. Do people just like to exaggerate about them?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
I have no problems with PUGs. Do people just like to exaggerate about them?

MasterJacer's Avatar


MasterJacer
01.03.2013 , 04:28 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by IAmViiOLENT View Post
Its mostly going to come from players who come from raiding guilds. For example, I can run HM LI in 15-20 minutes with my guild, never wipe etc, but when I pug it; it usually is an hour ordeal spent explaining mechanics and trying to teach someone how to play their class. It's not even elitism, its just that people from higher end guilds/groups end up expecting better and for the most part, pugs aren't close to the same quality as a good raiding guild.
I agree completely being in a top guild. The main other reason is pugs don't have Vent/Mumble/TS3, and if they do people refuse to use them. They don't have to transmit but it helps a lot just to hear. My guild was running with a pug a few days ago and he was new so we asked him to get on Vent. He said "You mean like calm mind?" LOL. That's pugs for you.
Yttrunchach: Sniper - The Ebon Hawk - <Nemesis>

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
01.03.2013 , 04:34 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
For me it comes down to 1 thing in bad PUGs: Some players simply make things harder than just not having them.

I usually tank but lately I've been healing too and the pattern is usually the same. Most are fine but you sometimes get a DPS that:
- Pulls before the tank
- Breaks CC
- Ignore mechanics
- LOS the healer
- Ignore the kill order and get Gold Fever
Almost universally those players also say nothing in chat or get defensive when you try and explain what happened and how to prevent it next time. Amusingly, almost all of those DPS I come across have been Sentinels or Marauders. Now rarely does this cause a wipe but it really annoys me. A bad tank or a bad healer though, that can just wipe a group repeatedly.
You know something funny about this. I have 6 level 50s, but I only recently got around to leveling a Sentinel -- I've oddly enough had no interest until a year into the game.

And despite knowing what to do as a dps, and having 2 end-game healers and 1 end-game tank, I found bad habits creeping in, just due to the Sentinel combat experience.

Get on speeder, drive close to mobs, get <30m range, Force Leap off the speeder kill everything. Once I unlocked doc I'm a faceroll killing machine and I don't have to pay attention to ANYTHING. Kill order, rotation, priorities, defensive cooldowns, enemy debuffs, etc. are completely unnecessary.

Get back on speeder, drive near next mob, Force Leeeeeeeeeeap!

I know similar things could be said about other classes while leveling, but the seems exacerbated with the Sentinel playstyle.

After 50 levels of Force Leap/Faceroll playing, I think I'll be surprised at any Sentinel that knows the definition of the word "restraint"

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
01.03.2013 , 06:59 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
You know something funny about this. I have 6 level 50s, but I only recently got around to leveling a Sentinel -- I've oddly enough had no interest until a year into the game.

And despite knowing what to do as a dps, and having 2 end-game healers and 1 end-game tank, I found bad habits creeping in, just due to the Sentinel combat experience.

Get on speeder, drive close to mobs, get <30m range, Force Leap off the speeder kill everything. Once I unlocked doc I'm a faceroll killing machine and I don't have to pay attention to ANYTHING. Kill order, rotation, priorities, defensive cooldowns, enemy debuffs, etc. are completely unnecessary.

Get back on speeder, drive near next mob, Force Leeeeeeeeeeap!

I know similar things could be said about other classes while leveling, but the seems exacerbated with the Sentinel playstyle.

After 50 levels of Force Leap/Faceroll playing, I think I'll be surprised at any Sentinel that knows the definition of the word "restraint"
Yeah I had the exact same experience when I started a Marauder. He's level 13 but he's a wrecking ball at the moment. It's very tempting to just leap in and kill when grouped. Doesn't mean I'm going to start cutting them slack though
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

USCG_Davis's Avatar


USCG_Davis
01.03.2013 , 09:58 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by IAmViiOLENT View Post
Its mostly going to come from players who come from raiding guilds. For example, I can run HM LI in 15-20 minutes with my guild, never wipe etc, but when I pug it; it usually is an hour ordeal spent explaining mechanics and trying to teach someone how to play their class. It's not even elitism, its just that people from higher end guilds/groups end up expecting better and for the most part, pugs aren't close to the same quality as a good raiding guild.
On the same server as Opfotm and I completely agree. Our server, and I'm sure I'm generalizing here, has an incredible amount of amazingly awful healers. To elaborate: My brother and I are both raiders in our top raid group ( I'm a dps and he's a tank). Both of us are optimized 63 geared. I'm missing the Hazmat earpiece and he's missing the belt and bracers. Yet on multiple occasions, we've run with healers who can't seem to keep him alive, complain that he's too squishy to tank, and then quit on us when we just call them ****** at their job. Now, granted we might be very spoiled with the guildies we usually run with when it's 4 dps clearing LI HM (sorc off heals FTW), but we make sure to slow down some for pugs. There is no reason that a tank with 28k health should die on Malgus or Revan...or god forbid the trash at the start of boarding party. Last night he got accused of taking all the damage during some pull on Kaon and the healer was mad because he was used to " The damage being spread around more".

Since I can solo dps every single FP boss in this game; we don't have to worry about dps ruining runs for us. Far and away the most common thing we run into is crappy *** healers who have zero clue what to do.

As for the people complaining about dps pulling before your tank: all I have to say is that you have a crappy tank. Now, before you respond by trashing me; listen to my reasoning. I will be the first to admit that I pull quickly. I don't wait for the tank. If the tank has to keep up with me; I vote to kick him. The tank should be jumping to a group, agroing, and moving on. It's not your job to stay and try to kill the adds. That's why you have 2 dps...they kill stuff you don't. By the time you get to the second group of adds, your dps should be done and ready to come kill your group. They get to your group, you move on. Only time I will wait is when the healer is low on energy and force or high on heat. But again, If trash is causing your healer to go low on reasources, I'd probably vote to kick him as well. Flashpoints are meant to be fast. If you're in a flashpoint for the story; stop wasting the other 3 people's time and go solo it in SM.

EDIT: Also, just for full disclosure I am Mara. Rage spec for Flashpoints and Carnage for Ops. I can kill almost every single trash pull with one smash. Yet, I do the exact same thing one my Sorc, Powertech, Sniper, and Merc. My job is to kill stuff. I love dps and use flashpoints to refine gear and simple rotations. If tanks can't keep up; their fault not mine. Every single one of my toons has at minimum 61 BiS and I can kill most pulls with an AoE. Tanks literally have nothing to do except keep up
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mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
01.04.2013 , 10:40 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by USCG_Davis View Post
Since I can solo dps every single FP boss in this game; we don't have to worry about dps ruining runs for us. Far and away the most common thing we run into is crappy *** healers who have zero clue what to do.
Really? If you have the gear you say you do and are as great as you are implying you are, then you should be able to do these HM FP without a healer. I have done 5 hm fp with 4 dps and no tank or healer when one guild member wanted his speeder achievement for a alt.

My main is one of these crappy *** healers, I have healed HM TfB and into NiM EC with no problems, but if the tank and dps don't know how to use defensive cooldown, get out of AOEs, interupt or dps knowing kill order or aggro dumps, then let them die. I have healed many HM FP with 13K HP tanks and I would rather do that with someone that is willing to listen and learn than a overgeared tank or dps that really has no clue how to play in groups. I would rather have a 800 dps, than a 2000 dps that has no clue of how to use cooldowns or any game awareness.

USCG_Davis's Avatar


USCG_Davis
01.04.2013 , 10:49 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by mikebevo View Post
Really? If you have the gear you say you do and are as great as you are implying you are, then you should be able to do these HM FP without a healer. I have done 5 hm fp with 4 dps and no tank or healer when one guild member wanted his speeder achievement for a alt.

My main is one of these crappy *** healers, I have healed HM TfB and into NiM EC with no problems, but if the tank and dps don't know how to use defensive cooldown, get out of AOEs, interupt or dps knowing kill order or aggro dumps, then let them die. I have healed many HM FP with 13K HP tanks and I would rather do that with someone that is willing to listen and learn than a overgeared tank or dps that really has no clue how to play in groups. I would rather have a 800 dps, than a 2000 dps that has no clue of how to use cooldowns or any game awareness.
If you can heal so well; I'm obliviously not talking about you am I? No matter your gear/skill level you need heals. I can't heal on my Mara and he can't heal on his Jugg. All you need is a companion to heal through every flashpoint (with the exception of LI) and as long as you can out HPS a companion, you'll do fine. So please, lets work a bit reading comprehension before you start replying.

As for your 4 dps through a flashpoint; I said the exact same thing: 4 dps through LI. What's your point?
Raid Leader for <E>
Prophecy of the Five
Atrýss Leggo'my-agro Haji'go-boom Chive-on Sweetims
I'carry-baddies I'carry-scrubs I'cause-QQ

mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
01.04.2013 , 11:01 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by USCG_Davis View Post
As for your 4 dps through a flashpoint; I said the exact same thing: 4 dps through LI. What's your point?
Then why can't you make it through a HM FP with a less than average healer?

If you have a great tank and a great dps, then the healer should only have to heal the tank. Which any fresh 50 should be able to do, provided they are not getting tore up by the mobs (should dps be killing in the wrong order).

Just noticed we are on the same server...You must really have some bad luck, because I have been very lucky to get some very good healers there. Of course, I mainly just do fp on the republic side. On the imp I have another healer, but she just does guild runs.

Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
01.04.2013 , 11:16 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by USCG_Davis View Post
On the same server as Opfotm and I completely agree. Our server, and I'm sure I'm generalizing here, has an incredible amount of amazingly awful healers. To elaborate: My brother and I are both raiders in our top raid group ( I'm a dps and he's a tank). Both of us are optimized 63 geared. I'm missing the Hazmat earpiece and he's missing the belt and bracers. Yet on multiple occasions, we've run with healers who can't seem to keep him alive, complain that he's too squishy to tank, and then quit on us when we just call them ****** at their job. Now, granted we might be very spoiled with the guildies we usually run with when it's 4 dps clearing LI HM (sorc off heals FTW), but we make sure to slow down some for pugs. There is no reason that a tank with 28k health should die on Malgus or Revan...or god forbid the trash at the start of boarding party. Last night he got accused of taking all the damage during some pull on Kaon and the healer was mad because he was used to " The damage being spread around more".

Since I can solo dps every single FP boss in this game; we don't have to worry about dps ruining runs for us. Far and away the most common thing we run into is crappy *** healers who have zero clue what to do.

As for the people complaining about dps pulling before your tank: all I have to say is that you have a crappy tank. Now, before you respond by trashing me; listen to my reasoning. I will be the first to admit that I pull quickly. I don't wait for the tank. If the tank has to keep up with me; I vote to kick him. The tank should be jumping to a group, agroing, and moving on. It's not your job to stay and try to kill the adds. That's why you have 2 dps...they kill stuff you don't. By the time you get to the second group of adds, your dps should be done and ready to come kill your group. They get to your group, you move on. Only time I will wait is when the healer is low on energy and force or high on heat. But again, If trash is causing your healer to go low on reasources, I'd probably vote to kick him as well. Flashpoints are meant to be fast. If you're in a flashpoint for the story; stop wasting the other 3 people's time and go solo it in SM.

EDIT: Also, just for full disclosure I am Mara. Rage spec for Flashpoints and Carnage for Ops. I can kill almost every single trash pull with one smash. Yet, I do the exact same thing one my Sorc, Powertech, Sniper, and Merc. My job is to kill stuff. I love dps and use flashpoints to refine gear and simple rotations. If tanks can't keep up; their fault not mine. Every single one of my toons has at minimum 61 BiS and I can kill most pulls with an AoE. Tanks literally have nothing to do except keep up
A tank is crappy because he doesn't stack up packs upon packs of enemies on top of his group with no hope for healer or dps to wait a sec and regen? you have too high expectations from a pug group. As a tank if I see a guy going ahead and attacking a mob I consider that they are aware of the risks of doing that act and proceed to killing the other mobs. With full 63 you can tank gold mobs anyway.
Ephesia, Level 55 Jedi Guardian
Tomb of Freedon Nadd (EU)
Member of Catalyst

ShawnSixtyTwo's Avatar


ShawnSixtyTwo
01.04.2013 , 11:23 AM | #29
Yes, people exaggerate here big time. It's human nature to remember the negative exception more vividly than the positive norm. It IS true, however, that when a pug is bad it's really bad. You can usually muddle through one weak link, but when there's 2 or more and/or they're fighting amongst themselves. (I've seen a healer or tank start fighting with one of the other members more than a few times and it all goes downhill from there). Still, I can probably count the number of times since GF launch that I've had a PUG fall apart and fail to finish the FP without taking my shoes off.

Instead by a HUGE margin I've found the group finder & daily PUGs to be almost comically effective in crushing this "hard mode" content. Most of the time on my healer I'm not even throwing out my big heals - just AoE and HOTs while adding my own piddly little DPS to the mix because the tank & DPS just aren't taking damage before stuff gets burned down.

All bets are off at low levels, though. You never know how new your groupmates are to the game and/or their class/role then. But I don't group much while leveling anyway.
-= The Sinistral Legacy on The Harbinger =-
Raphus - 50 Sentinel Desperot - 50 Scoundrel Verticalis - 50 Commando
Malivore - 50 Assassin Scoloa - 50 Sniper Dendro - Powertech

uniz's Avatar


uniz
01.05.2013 , 01:12 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Felioats View Post
Maybe 1 in 20 PUGs will I come across someone I don't want to group with again, and it's always because they had an attitude problem or did something like queue up as tank when they are DPS spec/geared. Most runs are smooth, and disbanding because we can't beat a boss is exceptionally rare.

Yet I frequently hear people say they've sworn off PUGs or they hate them or whatever.

I see a number of possible explanations:

People like to complain/act superior
Bad players who do not know they are bad complain that groups are bad (unlikely that this is a main factor, I think)
People get upset really easily/I'm really easygoing

Or it could be that I'm an awesome healer who makes up for bads. Of course this is my favorite theory, but I am biased, so I want to find out what other people have experienced and think.

some of the major problems are a few peoples' expectations are too high for players new to mmos, have little patience with them and are not capable of teaching them. they expect everyone to know how to play rather than try to teach them. most even lack the tact in dealing with such players and instead just leave the group or rant on and on. most new players want to learn and are willing to listen. these are not the problem players i have run into though.

yes i have run into some poor players in pugs in here but have done so across every mmo i have played. most of these players are well geared and are guilded. this is the problem. they think they are better than what they are because they came from a different mmo trying to use the same tactics when this games mechanics are different. you cant tell them anything. they are the problem and not the newbs nor f2p players.



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