Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Your take on The Sith Order and the Jedi Order!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Your take on The Sith Order and the Jedi Order!

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.03.2013 , 11:42 AM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
The Balance on Tython was only possible because the Je'daii were scientists and secluded themselves from the rest of the galaxy. As soon as they had to decide what to do with the rest of the galaxy, they couldn't keep balance. The light side urged them to serve others, the dark side urged them to enslave others.

But even in the changed Jedi Order there will always be renegade Jedi who try to use the Force to gain power over others and enrich themselves. And also those who are turned mad by the Dark Side. The Je'daii Order hat to exile lots and lots of people who fell to the dark and force them to meditate until they are balanced enough to return.
You make a good point, and I had to give my response some thought. However I believe a balance could still be struck. Force users don't have to choose to protect the weak, or enslave them - they can instead choose simply to maintain peace in the galaxy and balance in the Force. This is what the Je'daii Order would do, they would not present themselves are defenders of the Republic, but peacemakers for the whole galaxy, not dedicated to any single body. There purpose would be to advise and provide knowledge to everyone dedicated to upholding peace and harmony.

You may argue that if the Je'daii don't protect the Republic, then the Republic becomes vulnerable to attackers, especially Sith. But the Republic must learn to defend itself, without depending on Force users, as before the association between Jedi and the Republic made the Jedi targets for enemies of the Republic, and the Republic targets for enemies of the Jedi i.e. the Sith. And remember what Kreia says:

"If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken yourself… and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards. You stole that struggle from them, cheapened it. If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles. And when they triumph, they will be even stronger for the victory."

The Je'daii Order would let the Republic grow strong by fighting its own battles without using them as a crutch, and so they could defend themselves without Je'daii involvement which would only make the Republic a target and vice versa.

In terms of the Sith, it would be the Je'daii Order's task alone to protect against the Sith threat, and prevent it from becoming a threat in the first place. By breaking ties with the Republic, any conflict between Je'daii and Sith or even Jedi, would be between them alone, and not the rest of the galaxy, who should have no part in it. Neither should conflict be solved through war, if possible it should be tackled through meditation and peaceful methods, which the Je'daii Order understand. I don't know if you've watched the Clone Wars arc on the Ones, but if you have imagine the Je'daii Order as the Father, keeping the peace, and the balance between like and dark, but on a galactic scale.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.03.2013 , 04:25 PM | #82
@Yellow:

Quote: Originally Posted by YeIIow View Post
am sorry if that is the case... however, so far ur the only one complaining about my grammar... i know i write with lots of mistakes... but am already trying to do my best and from my point of view, what i say is more than understandable.....
Thanks, it's much easier to read now.


Quote:
1- no i have never finished Thyton with a consular, since in my Op they have one of the most boring stories...

2- u seriolsy can't be telling me that u take what the game says over what wookkipedia says? are u? the ingame lore is full of mistakes, as many have pointed out several times.... so really, what else do i need to say in this regard?
1. If you are interested in how the light side-dark side conflict started, I really suggest you play Consular up to the point where you get your lightsaber.

2. Yes, I seriously take a game, which is canon, over a site everyone can edit. Actually, I have read Dawn of the Jedi comics Wookiepedia points out as source. I couldn't find what Wookiepedia says there.

Quote:
balance was more than possible, for over 10k years.... on those 10k years, neither the light sided guys became obsessed with being priests and monks, neither the dark sided guys became serial murders....
Yeah, balance is possible if you stay on your planet and don't interfere with the rest of the galaxy. Also, you have to exile everyone who gets to dark ans also everyone who gets too light. Imprison them on the moons of Tython and until they are balanced again or die.

The Je'daii Order was far stricter with people who wanted to explore the dark side or the light side than the Jedi were.

Quote:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Order
Tython and Force Wars

however at one point during 25,783 BBY a splinter group formed within the Order; These Je'daii were enamored by the light side of the Force, or Ashla, and professed that it was stronger than the Bogan.... thats how it all began..... not becouse anybody was slaving anybody or killing anybody, or practicing necromancy, or anything....
The Force Wars were not the First Great Schism and also not the Second Great Schism. Each of these had different reasons.

And, as I already said, this "enamored by the light side of the Force" meant, they acutally said: "Hey, lets make the galaxy a better place."


By the way, this is also on Wookiepedia:

Principles of Rajivari

"Master Rajivari, one of the founding members of the Jedi Order, believed that the Jedi should use their knowledge of the Force to conquer and rule the galaxy, helping govern the countless star systems with the guidance of the Force. When this idea was rejected by the first Jedi High Council, Master Rajivari resigned from the body and set out to destroy the Order he had created, believing that the High Council was settling for mediocrity instead of greatness."

Quote:
ehem.....

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Korriban_zombie
Originally created by Sith King Dathka Graush's experiments using Sith alchemy and magic to reanimate corpses

Korriban zombies where the first zombies... about how the were created i thing that was quite clear; i believe reanimate corpses = bring back to life, already dead things..... no?
Yeah, that's what this Sith King did. Wookiepedia doesn't say what the Dark Jedi did.

Quote:
have u readed the links? they left peacefully and founded their own academy.... on both wars..... it is not that the jedi gave them a chance, such chance was not even nessesary, they decided to leave and so they did....

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/First_Great_Schism:
Xendor and Lyn departed Ossus to establish their new academy on Lettow.
[COLOR="rgb(255, 140, 0)"]The Legions of Lettow initially wished to be left alone by the Jedi[/COLOR]

seriolsy no offense, but this is starting to get a bit repetitive.....
Then stop bringing up the First Great Schism. That's not what started the Sith. What I say applies only to the Second Great Schism. And there the Dark Jedi didn't leave peacefully.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hundred-Year_Darkness


@Beniboybling:

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
This is what the Je'daii Order would do, they would not present themselves are defenders of the Republic, but peacemakers for the whole galaxy, not dedicated to any single body. There purpose would be to advise and provide knowledge to everyone dedicated to upholding peace and harmony.
Sorry, but this is not balance, this is totally light side. A darksider would simply say "Why the hell should we be peacemakers for the whole galaxy if we could use the Force to conquer it."

The Jedi actually started to support the Republic because they saw it as one of the greatest opportunity for lasting peace. Also, if I remember correctly, many Jedi were peacemakers outside the Republic.

Quote:
In terms of the Sith, it would be the Je'daii Order's task alone to protect against the Sith threat, and prevent it from becoming a threat in the first place. By breaking ties with the Republic, any conflict between Je'daii and Sith or even Jedi, would be between them alone, and not the rest of the galaxy, who should have no part in it. Neither should conflict be solved through war, if possible it should be tackled through meditation and peaceful methods, which the Je'daii Order understand. I don't know if you've watched the Clone Wars arc on the Ones, but if you have imagine the Je'daii Order as the Father, keeping the peace, and the balance between like and dark, but on a galactic scale.
Well, that won't stop the Sith from enslaving non-Force-sensitive people and drafting them into military service to gain an advantage against the Jedi Order by numbers alone. Or, in general, building political entities much stronger than the Jedi Order. The Jedi choose, instead of building their own Empire, to support the nation which was closest to their ideals.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

AggiePunbot's Avatar


AggiePunbot
01.04.2013 , 06:59 AM | #83
I find it interesting that one of the few things both the jedi and sith seem to agree on is that love is to be avoided at all costs.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.04.2013 , 07:20 AM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Sorry, but this is not balance, this is totally light side. A darksider would simply say "Why the hell should we be peacemakers for the whole galaxy if we could use the Force to conquer it."

The Jedi actually started to support the Republic because they saw it as one of the greatest opportunity for lasting peace. Also, if I remember correctly, many Jedi were peacemakers outside the Republic.
Is it? The dark side of the Force is not all about enslaving people and conquering the galaxy. Its as much about mastering your emotions as the light side, except the dark side uses emotions whereas the light side rejects them. A balance can be struck. Remember the Je'daii Order would not be dark or light, but a balance between the two, taking aspects of the light and aspects of the dark. Peace and emotion can exist at the same time. Just take a look at the Father.

And yes the Jedi Order claim to strive for peace, but half heartily. How can they full embrace peace if they advocated acts of war? And participate in them? The Je'daii Order would not do that. They would only ever raise a lightsaber to a Sith threat, and even then as a last resort.

Quote:
Well, that won't stop the Sith from enslaving non-Force-sensitive people and drafting them into military service to gain an advantage against the Jedi Order by numbers alone. Or, in general, building political entities much stronger than the Jedi Order. The Jedi choose, instead of building their own Empire, to support the nation which was closest to their ideals.
But the Je'daii Order won't sit by idly. And dark side threats will be quelled before they can begin, and few will as the the Je'daii embrace light and dark. And if a Sith threat does manage to come into frutition, at least their fight will be first with the Je'daii Order, and not everyone else. This is the difference here, the Jedi Order always waited for the threat to come to them, they never tried to seek it out and suppress it. Because they feared the darkness that lurked away from their Jedi Temple. A flaw of the light the Je'daii would not have.

We also have to remember the Force has a will of its own. And as the Father says:

"Too much light or dark would be the undoing of life as you understand it."

The galaxy needs Ashla and Bogan - it cannot survive without both. This is partly the reason why the Sith threat always returns once the Jedi have destroyed it, because their destruction creates too much light in the galaxy, which needs to be balanced with dark. I'd even go as far to say that the Second Jedi Purge was the Force's way of redressing the millennia long shift towards the light side. Or at least the Chosen One was the Force's weapon to restore balance once it shifted to the dark. A Je'daii order would therefore be in harmony with the Force's will, a balance between light and dark. Therefore the Force would not see a need to redress an imbalance, and the Sith threat would never present itself.

Surinen's Avatar


Surinen
01.04.2013 , 07:56 AM | #85
Jedi Order - mostly idiots who serve the biggest dumbicy of the universe - democracy

Sith Order - masters of the universe
Aperture Science. We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us- Except the ones who are dead.

YeIIow's Avatar


YeIIow
01.04.2013 , 08:21 AM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post

1. If you are interested in how the light side-dark side conflict started, I really suggest you play Consular up to the point where you get your lightsaber.

2. Yes, I seriously take a game, which is canon, over a site everyone can edit. Actually, I have read Dawn of the Jedi comics Wookiepedia points out as source. I couldn't find what Wookiepedia says there.
i disagree with u there, wookkipedia is a place where all sources are taken into consideration; it is by far the most canon source of information out there(at least when we compare it to any of the other sources that are avanibles to everyone), wookkipedia is definetly muchmore of a truth-worthy source than the game, wich as i said is full of mistakes and contradictions in its codex....

take as a not related to starwars example, the last novel of Mass Effect(the first edition of it)... would u consider it cannon just becouse it was released by Bioware? if u do... LOL... cos it had so many plot holes and contradictions with what was suposed to be cannon that they had to apologise and release several editions of it in order to correct things....

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post

Yeah, balance is possible if you stay on your planet and don't interfere with the rest of the galaxy. Also, you have to exile everyone who gets to dark ans also everyone who gets too light. Imprison them on the moons of Tython and until they are balanced again or die.

The Je'daii Order was far stricter with people who wanted to explore the dark side or the light side than the Jedi were.
well yes and no about being stricter, u could still learn partially both sides of the force.... thats what balance is about, been something in between, not completly dark, neither completly light, but u could still follow any of the paths.... and yes, if they decided to embrace all light or all dark they were sended to a moon, they were not killed, or considered traitors or deserters.... they could either stay on the moon following their ideas or embrace balance once more..... to me this seems more reasonable that just rejecting the dark side teachings or the light side teachings all-together like the now-days jedi and sith do...

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post

The Force Wars were not the First Great Schism and also not the Second Great Schism. Each of these had different reasons.

And, as I already said, this "enamored by the light side of the Force" meant, they acutally said: "Hey, lets make the galaxy a better place."
enamored by the force = they became radicals, renouncing to the teachings of peace and balance.... embracing only light and condeeming evil as something that they had to destroy...

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post

By the way, this is also on Wookiepedia:

Principles of Rajivari

"Master Rajivari, one of the founding members of the Jedi Order, believed that the Jedi should use their knowledge of the Force to conquer and rule the galaxy, helping govern the countless star systems with the guidance of the Force. When this idea was rejected by the first Jedi High Council, Master Rajivari resigned from the body and set out to destroy the Order he had created, believing that the High Council was settling for mediocrity instead of greatness."
how to put this:
by that time, those light followers were already Jedi = they were radicals already who left the Je'daii order and teachings, they were decided to only follow light and destroy dark;
Rejivari was one of those first Jedi at the beginning, but then renounced light and united the dark followers under his banner; now, take into consideration that those darksiders were not nesesary seeking the destruction of the Jedi at first, they reunited under a banner, cos the Jedi had taken the task of destroying them... while Rejivari was still on the Jedi side, those darksiders were still following their own path..... remember it was the light siders who first abandoned the idea of balance, not the "power greedy"(as most people consider them) darksiders... what an irony no?
"Forged by Fire; Empowered by Passion"
o◙[//////////]ị:◙:ị{▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒)

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
01.04.2013 , 12:03 PM | #87
@AggiePunbot:

Quote: Originally Posted by AggiePunbot View Post
I find it interesting that one of the few things both the jedi and sith seem to agree on is that love is to be avoided at all costs.
It's interesting. It does make kind of sense: If you want to become more than a human (or other sentient), you have to leave trivial human things like love behind.

But IIRC for a long time it was perfectly normal for Jedi to love, marry and have families. (It's like this in the Tales of the Jedi comics.) Love also seems to be possible for lower Sith who have given up their ambitions for unlimited power.

@Beniboybling:

[QUOTE=Beniboybling;5675013]Is it? The dark side of the Force is not all about enslaving people and conquering the galaxy. Its as much about mastering your emotions as the light side, except the dark side uses emotions whereas the light side rejects them.[QUOTE]

This seems to be a point where we have a different understanding of the dark side. I don't think all emotions are inherently dark side. The Dark Side is connected to hate, anger, fear. And even these I wouldn't consider as completely dark side, though they are very useful to channel the dark side.
Compassion for example is an emotion far more connected to the light side than the dark. It must be twisted to lead others to the dark side.

AFAIK "controlling/rejecting emotions" was not such a big thing for the Jedi Order throughout history. It was a means to an end. They Jedi thought it would make them better for protecting peace and justice.

As I said, it depends on how you define light and dark. I agree that the Jedi should allow the stoic connection to the Force and the emotional connection to the Force.

But IMO that's not what the conflict is about. The conflict is the classic good vs evil (which doesn't mean Jedi can't be evil and Sith can't be good, but overall it's just that.)

Quote:
And yes the Jedi Order claim to strive for peace, but half heartily. How can they full embrace peace if they advocated acts of war? And participate in them? The Je'daii Order would not do that. They would only ever raise a lightsaber to a Sith threat, and even then as a last resort.
Well, the Jedi are mistaken sometimes. But sometimes peace will only lead to more injustice. You are right, the Je'daii Order would not participate in that as long as they are not threatened themselves. IMO they would, for example, not object to the Republic's anti-alien Pius Dea crusades.

Quote:
This is the difference here, the Jedi Order always waited for the threat to come to them, they never tried to seek it out and suppress it.
Except when they did. Like they did against the Legions of Lettow. But then they are considered as evil because they attacked. (I'm not sure if you consider them as evil for doing this, but some certainly do.)

Quote:
We also have to remember the Force has a will of its own. And as the Father says:

"Too much light or dark would be the undoing of life as you understand it."
I don't think the Father is right about this. He is not the Force, he is just a powerful Force entity. He loved both of his children, but in the end he was on the side of his daughter.

Quote:
A Je'daii order would therefore be in harmony with the Force's will, a balance between light and dark. Therefore the Force would not see a need to redress an imbalance, and the Sith threat would never present itself.
From what I've read in the Dawn of the Jedi comicbooks, it seemed for more common for Je'daii members to fall to the dark side and needed to be imprisoned on one of the moons than it was for Jedi.
Experimenting with the Dark Side is dangerous.


Quote: Originally Posted by YeIIow View Post
i disagree with u there, wookkipedia is a place where all sources are taken into consideration; it is by far the most canon source of information out there(at least when we compare it to any of the other sources that are avanibles to everyone), wookkipedia is definetly muchmore of a truth-worthy source than the game, wich as i said is full of mistakes and contradictions in its codex....

take as a not related to starwars example, the last novel of Mass Effect(the first edition of it)... would u consider it cannon just becouse it was released by Bioware? if u do... LOL... cos it had so many plot holes and contradictions with what was suposed to be cannon that they had to apologise and release several editions of it in order to correct things....
But I said, I read the source which is pointed out on wookiepedia as source for their statement about the Force Wars. And what Wookiepedia stated was not there.

Quote:
well yes and no about being stricter, u could still learn partially both sides of the force.... thats what balance is about, been something in between, not completly dark, neither completly light, but u could still follow any of the paths.... and yes, if they decided to embrace all light or all dark they were sended to a moon, they were not killed, or considered traitors or deserters.... they could either stay on the moon following their ideas or embrace balance once more..... to me this seems more reasonable that just rejecting the dark side teachings or the light side teachings all-together like the now-days jedi and sith do...
And when a Jedi like Exar Kun wanted to explore the dark side, the Jedi... simply let him do. Even if it meant a pretty destructive war. Throughout history, the Jedi Order was sometimes allowed more and sometimes allowed less than the Je'daii.

But as I said, many more Je'daii fell to the dark side and had to be exiled than Jedi did. Experimenting with the dark side is dangerous.

Quote:
enamored by the force = they became radicals, renouncing to the teachings of peace and balance.... embracing only light and condeeming evil as something that they had to destroy...
Where is your primary source for this? I have heard what those guys said in the game. They weren't radicals. Read up what Wookiepedia says about them, if you trust it more:

Garon Jard
Cala Brin
Ters Sendon

Quote:
how to put this:
by that time, those light followers were already Jedi = they were radicals already who left the Je'daii order and teachings, they were decided to only follow light and destroy dark;
Rejivari was one of those first Jedi at the beginning, but then renounced light and united the dark followers under his banner; now, take into consideration that those darksiders were not nesesary seeking the destruction of the Jedi at first, they reunited under a banner, cos the Jedi had taken the task of destroying them... while Rejivari was still on the Jedi side, those darksiders were still following their own path..... remember it was the light siders who first abandoned the idea of balance, not the "power greedy"(as most people consider them) darksiders... what an irony no?
Well, this is a case where Wookiepedia simply contradicts itself.

The light siders first abandoned the balance, but why? Because they wanted to help reaching peace and justice in the galaxy.

And Rajivari was a great philosopher who observed the nature and people and came to the conclusion that it is better for the Jedi Order the, well "become evil". He wouldn't phrase it like that, of course. But he believed that life is a constant battle, mercy lead only to destruction and self-sacrifice was foolish. He is a very interesting person, and I can actually understand why he considered the dark side superior. But you can't make him a missunderstood good guy.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

YeIIow's Avatar


YeIIow
01.04.2013 , 12:35 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post

And when a Jedi like Exar Kun wanted to explore the dark side, the Jedi... simply let him do. Even if it meant a pretty destructive war. Throughout history, the Jedi Order was sometimes allowed more and sometimes allowed less than the Je'daii.

The Jedi did not allowed Exar Kun to explore and follow the dark side of the force, they allowed him to go on a personal quest to explore the galaxy and its secretes, not exactly the same thing..

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
But as I said, many more Je'daii fell to the dark side and had to be exiled than Jedi did. Experimenting with the dark side is dangerous.
btw don't mix things and brake into bad founded-conclutions, for 10k years there was balance, it was not the darksiders who broke from the order and created one of their own, and decided to purge the lightsiders.....

Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Where is your primary source for this? I have heard what those guys said in the game. They weren't radicals. Read up what Wookiepedia says about them, if you trust it more:

Garon Jard
Cala Brin
Ters Sendon

The light siders first abandoned the balance, but why? Because they wanted to help reaching peace and justice in the galaxy.

And Rajivari was a great philosopher who observed the nature and people and came to the conclusion that it is better for the Jedi Order the, well "become evil". He wouldn't phrase it like that, of course. But he believed that life is a constant battle, mercy lead only to destruction and self-sacrifice was foolish. He is a very interesting person, and I can actually understand why he considered the dark side superior. But you can't make him a missunderstood good guy.
My source:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Order
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Je%27daii_Order .

Are u saying that they(Jedi) did not abandoned balance? that they did not agreed on the thinking that the light side was stronger and that it was their duty to destroy the dark side, as they considered it evil?

sorry but those thinkings sound pretty radical to me..... if they don't to u, what u call radical then?

U can keep saying why they abandoned the balance and that it was for a greater good, it still doesn't changes the fact that they refused balance, refused to co-exist with the dark side of the force..... if u keep ignoring it, then ur basically claiming that: "the the end justifies the means".... then we can say the Sith are ultimately good, since they want peace and prosperity in a galaxy ruled by them.... or does "the the end justifies the means" only aplies to the Jedi? If the Empire kills millions of innocents,then they're evil, but if the Republic does the same, its justify cos it was in the name of a Greater GOOD? pls..... the why dosent changes the what....

----------------------------------------------

about wookkipedia, even if the source is missing(sadly i duno why that was the case), i entrust myself to what ever wookkipedia says any day at anytime, rather that what an in-game codex says....

back to the Mass Effect example, the Original in-game ending of Mass Effect 3 contradicted many of what was Common Canon Lore, and well i think we all know all around that Retake Mass Effect movement..... Proving once more that what we see in-game is many times wrong or contradictory to what is cannon... in-game codexs and even less in-game dialogs, cant be trusted 100%....
"Forged by Fire; Empowered by Passion"
o◙[//////////]ị:◙:ị{▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒)

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
01.04.2013 , 01:38 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
Jedi Order - mostly idiots who serve the biggest dumbicy of the universe - democracy

Sith Order - masters of the universe
"biggest dumbicy of the universe" is what you think about democracy? Where do you live and what kind of government do you serve? Would you rather live in a monarchy or a dictatorship then a democracy? You can't be serious.
If you live in a free counrty, then you ought to be grateful for the people in the past who have fought to sustain that freedom.
If you live in a oppressed society, then I am truely sorry for you and your comment concerning democracy was made out of ignorance.

You need to study history my friend. Democracy is far from perfect, but it is also FAR from the "biggest dumbicy of the universe."

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.04.2013 , 01:54 PM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by Surinen View Post
Jedi Order - mostly idiots who serve the biggest dumbicy of the universe - democracy

Sith Order - masters of the universe
The Jedi Order is full of idiots serving a 'dumbicy'? No wonder the Republic has lasted so long. A corrupt system protected by a bunch of idiots, it must not have lasted very long! /sarcasm.

Masters of the Universe, eh? No wonder they've failed to conquer the universe! It's just a ploy to give the idiots some hope. /sarcasm...again.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus