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Kaggath Heats: Tyber Zann vs G0-T0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Heats: Tyber Zann vs G0-T0

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
01.03.2013 , 10:15 PM | #101
Here's my analysis. I'll defend it as needed. But needless to say, I think G0-T0 wins. Clearly.

Assassins: G0-T0
For obvious reasons, G0-T0’s assassins (Ubese, Zhug Brothers, HK-50s, Gand) will be very likely to track down Zann. He is cocky and very hands-on, wanting to be directly in control of everything. This will probably lead Zann to make a stupid mistake that would lead to his death by assassins. Also, HK-50s have infiltrated ships before, they can do so again. Zann’s assassins will be unable to reach G0-T0 on his stealthed yacht.

Influence: G0-T0
G0-T0 has the home field advantage. He is centered on Nar Shaddaa and will not move. His powerbase on Nar Shaddaa is vast, and Zann will start with the disadvantage of having to create an influence on Nar Shaddaa. On a galactic scale, the Exchange has been greatly underestimated, and Zann Consortium has been greatly exaggerated. People misunderstand that G0-T0 has much more influence on the galaxy than he is letting on. He is subtle, while Zann is anything but. Remember that “Corruption” Zann spread? G0-T0 has that and more.

Military: Zann
This is why people think Zann would be better equipped to deal with G0-T0. But military strength does not matter in an underworld battle. It might if Zann was facing the Rebellion or Empire, but he’s not. Most of his ground forces and all of his fleet will suck on Nar Shaddaa. A large portion of his might is useless in this Kaggath. He may have the military advantage, but he’s missing a very important factor.

Adaptability: G0-T0
G0-T0’s forces are meant to adapt. They’re bounty hunters trained to kill people. And they are perfect for battles on the crowded streets of Nar Shaddaa. Rancor? Tanks? I don’t think so. Really the only people Zann will be able to land on Nar Shaddaa are his grunts, the Defilers, and Urai. All easily countered by G0-T0’s trained assassins.

Leader: G0-T0
Zann is a normal human. No force. No special armor. Just a guy. He has a stealth field, but that won’t save him if he’s caught off-guard by assassins. He’s also a self-confident fool. G0-T0 will be invincible to any and all attacks made against him while stealthed. He also is able to defeat HK-47, so any attempt on his life is doomed to failure anyways. And in a 1v1, G0-T0 would own. He just has to release Jekk’jekk Tar gases into the room. Even stealthed, dead Zann.

In short, I see this ending very quickly by assassination. Zann has never had to deal with assassins before. Now he’ll have to. Also, a war on Nar Shaddaa will end in victory for G0-T0. And, on a galactic scale, G0-T0 has far more influence than Zann. Zann just looks to be powerful due to his army. But that firepower won’t help him here.

I would also like to point out that no one has presented a legitimate scenario for Zann winning and actually killing G0-T0. And I challenge Zann supporters to come up with one advantage Zann has other than firepower.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
01.03.2013 , 11:26 PM | #102
Edit: Wait nvrm this post.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Ausstig's Avatar


Ausstig
01.04.2013 , 04:00 AM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Sorry Canino, I was sick all day

A few points real quick. (Mostly on what Ausstig said)

It has already been settled that blockading Nar Shaddaa or blowing it up is a horrible idea. Everybody in the entire criminal underworld will hate Zann. Even if he bribes people, that doesn't make any sense because they'll still be losing influence and business. Also, the minute gis fleet comes out of hyperspace over Nar Shaddaa, everyone will hate him for making such an obvious power play. Messing with Nar Shaddaa = death. 1

I was wondering when someone would bring up killing HK factory. But if this is the height of G0-T0s power, he has enough HKs to last a lifetime. Also, HK-47 found it, but good luck destroying hundreds of HKs or bombing it, considering it's in a bunker.4

2On Hanharr, it does not make any sense for him to defect. It doesn't. There's too little motivation. Zann's forces were almost all organic, so if he wants bloodshed, Hangarr will side with G0-T0. There's just no reason for him to switch sides.

3 Also, Urai was not a Jedi, and, as stated, was very weak in the Force. To say he has precognitive abilities is wrong, seeing as we have no evidence of that. He would die just as easily as Zann at the hands of assassins and HKs.

5People very much underestimate the Exchange. Tell me, what is Tyber Zann's actual galactic influence? In the game he is from, play the story mode. He's not conquering Coruscant, he's stealing something from it. He has a couple worlds on the outer rim, but its not like he captured half the galaxy. The Exchange, on the other hand, has presence across the galaxy. Stating that the Exchange is weaker is wrong. The Exchange merely has a smaller military, which is what allows it to work across the galaxy and gain so much power.

I'll make my final statement later tonight, hopefully. Sorry for being absent today, but with the point system and the scenarios presented I find it very unlikely G0-T0 will lose.

1When has it been settled? The Hutts are the big player in Nar Shaddaa and are losing influence to G0-T0, they may even get in on Tyber's attack. This is a gang war, the other powers either don't/can't/won't act. Also if it is a power play he will attract more then it will push away, everyone loves a winner after all.

2 As I said, I was referring to general work. G0-T0 doen't need an attack dog that's not how he works, mostly you could claim he tried to make the exile this, so why keep Hanharr around. Also why is Hanharr following G0-T0, credits or 'bloodshed', I also don't remember Hanharr caring to much about 'blood' more violence in general.

3 Urais' 'level' of force awareness is never stated, so if he can sense light and dark, as well as heal him self, why not pre-cog? Also the HKs are not that impressive, they get beaten, a lot by mostly normal people, Tyber and Urai are smart cunning and never alone, they could take a squad of HKs.

4 "Battle droids hold battlefields", the HKs are not made for a stand up fight against prepared forces, they are best as 'invisible' assassins because no one notices droids. Tybers' troops could flush them out of the factory or just get to a certain point and plant a really big bomb. Grenades and ion blasts will make sort work of the HKs, they are assassins, not soldiers. As well, so what if it is in a bunker, Star Destoryers, which Tyber has, can turn the surface of a planet into molten rock, a Bunker will not help.

5 G0-T0 is A boss of the Exchange not THE boss. The exchange is not unified, so just because there are exchange operating on Coruscant dose not mean they work for/like G0-T0. Tyber directly rules about, depending on you play style, any-wear from 4-12 worlds if memory serves. He indirectly controls, though corruption, about 50-60 or higher if like me you enjor taking over everything. Either way it is more then Nar Shaddaa, much more.



Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
...

So your argument here is that the people of Nar Shaddaa will hate the Exchange because Zann is making them starve? It's the other way around.1

Firstly, "the people" have been oppressed forever on Nar Shaddaa. That isn't going to change anytime soon. Nar Shaddaa is cut into neat little corners where gangs control the people in their territory. You think they haven't put down rebellions before? I assure you that "people" are very bad off now and if they were going to roit, they would have. They already are starving. If the blockade made them worse off, they would be more likely to join organizations like the Exchange to fight it off. 2

3Secondly, the people that matter, aka bounty hunters and smugglers and gang leaders, will not like Zann or the blockade. They'll hate how it takes away their power and ability to trade and expand around the galaxy. I encourage you to take another look at that "Breaking the Mandalorian Blockade" video. Who did the smugglers defeat? The Mandalorians, the ones behind the blockade. Why? Because it brought them profit and fame. They didn't help take the Republic down. Because blockades are bad for business.

4And lastly, even if Zann's blockade manages to survive, remember this is the Smuggler's Moon. You know, like people who run blockades for a living? Zann's "food blockade" would not be able to stand up to thousands of smugglers doing what they do best: smuggling.

5In short, Nar Shaddaa is already starving. Putting a blockade in place won't stop smugglers, and will only anger every single person on Nar Shaddaa against Zann.
1 Hate, who said hate? I said resentment, envy a need to have what they have; food. it is survival.

2 This is a different situation. If the choice is live like a half starved dog or die most people will live. If the choice is slowly starve to death or fight for a chance a life people will seize it with both hands. Survival drives us to do desperate things. Staring people overthrew the Russian Empire in WW1, people who were starving and had been put down before. Also I said Tyber would give them guns and point them at the Exchange.

3 Who's business? not thieves, they steal all the food and make out like kings. Not the gangs, local ones at any rate, people need muscle, even more when chaos starts either to keep others down or to push them selves up. Maybe the big interplanetary gangs they would try something, or try to cut a deal with Tyber. The Bounty Hunters may care or they may find that chaos breeds opportunity. I think you should take another look at the Mando blockade, the smugglers failed. When they faced an organised military force, or even a paramilitary force like the Mandos or even Tyber, they lost. Also the Mandos did not offer them anything, Tyber can. Not everyone thinks long term, not everyone wants fame and glory, some people want a ton of money and sooner is better.

[B]4/B] Honestly I always just thought of it as a name, is New York an Empire? Cause it was called the Empire State? Any way smugglers don't run blockades for a living they do cops and take stolen/illegal goods from place to place, that is very different from going to a system full of ships wanting to kill you. Also if Tyber works out a deal with the Hutts, who are the key players in the Hutta system, most smugglers will find better things to do.

5 Starving is different from DEATH by starvation. When faced with death people will do what ever it takes to survive, they will take any risk not matter how slime if the only other choice is death, thats how people rule through fear, they give the option of survival take that away and suddenly the gangs look at lot less threatening.


Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Here's my analysis. I'll defend it as needed. But needless to say, I think G0-T0 wins. Clearly.

Assassins: G0-T0
For obvious reasons, G0-T0’s assassins (Ubese, Zhug Brothers, HK-50s, Gand) will be very likely to track down Zann. He is cocky and very hands-on, wanting to be directly in control of everything. This will probably lead Zann to make a stupid mistake that would lead to his death by assassins. Also, HK-50s have infiltrated ships before, they can do so again. Zann’s assassins will be unable to reach G0-T0 on his stealthed yacht. 1

Influence: G0-T0
G0-T0 has the home field advantage. He is centered on Nar Shaddaa and will not move. His powerbase on Nar Shaddaa is vast, and Zann will start with the disadvantage of having to create an influence on Nar Shaddaa. On a galactic scale, the Exchange has been greatly underestimated, and Zann Consortium has been greatly exaggerated. People misunderstand that G0-T0 has much more influence on the galaxy than he is letting on. He is subtle, while Zann is anything but. Remember that “Corruption” Zann spread? G0-T0 has that and more. 2

Military: Zann
This is why people think Zann would be better equipped to deal with G0-T0. But military strength does not matter in an underworld battle. It might if Zann was facing the Rebellion or Empire, but he’s not. Most of his ground forces and all of his fleet will suck on Nar Shaddaa. A large portion of his might is useless in this Kaggath. He may have the military advantage, but he’s missing a very important factor.3

Adaptability: G0-T0
G0-T0’s forces are meant to adapt. They’re bounty hunters trained to kill people. And they are perfect for battles on the crowded streets of Nar Shaddaa. Rancor? Tanks? I don’t think so. Really the only people Zann will be able to land on Nar Shaddaa are his grunts, the Defilers, and Urai. All easily countered by G0-T0’s trained assassins.4

Leader: G0-T0
Zann is a normal human. No force. No special armor. Just a guy. He has a stealth field, but that won’t save him if he’s caught off-guard by assassins. He’s also a self-confident fool. G0-T0 will be invincible to any and all attacks made against him while stealthed. He also is able to defeat HK-47, so any attempt on his life is doomed to failure anyways. And in a 1v1, G0-T0 would own. He just has to release Jekk’jekk Tar gases into the room. Even stealthed, dead Zann. 5

In short, I see this ending very quickly by assassination. Zann has never had to deal with assassins before. Now he’ll have to. Also, a war on Nar Shaddaa will end in victory for G0-T0. And, on a galactic scale, G0-T0 has far more influence than Zann. Zann just looks to be powerful due to his army. But that firepower won’t help him here.6

I would also like to point out that no one has presented a legitimate scenario for Zann winning and actually killing G0-T0. And I challenge Zann supporters to come up with one advantage Zann has other than firepower.
1They may find Tyber, he is on the move a lot and unpredictability has saved leaders before, most notable Hitler. If they do find him he will just buy them off, except for the droids, as G0-T0 is to droids, Tyber is to people. Or just shoot them, he is not stupid despite your instances to the contrary, he will have Uari at his side and probs some Nightsisters.

2 G0-T0 is shackled to Nar Shaddaa if he leaves he loses. He can't strike at Tyber base. Also if G0-T0 has the power you think he does, then why does he need the exile to fix Onderon and Dantooine? Why not fix it him self, Tyber could. Or is it because all he can do is work numbers and markets? G0-T0 may be able to influence, but can he control? I say no. Tyber can influence and then/or control. Also proof about the 'more then corruption'.

3 What forces would suck? Tanks are good at controling masses, though I will grant you limited in some cities, although the Russians did put them to good use crushing the Poish revolt, as well as other revolts and used by other nations. Fighters and Bombers are extremly useful in a city planet (moon really) as they can move in three dimensions and are not limited by ground access, very good way to get fire support quickly. Also to G0-T0s' forces have any heave weapons? Cause going up against a tank or Bomber with a hand weapon is quick way to get killed.

4 If all it took to make an army was to a killer we would draft the criminals first. If you get six Tigers and set them on some prey they will not do as well as a pack of six Lions. Armies need more then good fighters to win, they need discipline, command structure and logistical work. G0-T0's forces may be individually skilled but against troops who are trained to fight as a team they will lose. The Gand and the Ubese are hunters not fighters, they can fight by them selves but will take time to learn how to fight as part of a large group. So G0-T0's forces are very inflexible. Also numbers, Tyber has a lot more.

5 Your right Tyber is just an ordinary guy. But he is no fool, Ion Grenades, or his scatter shoot blaster, think space shotgun, would make short work of G0-T0, since it can scythe through stormtroopers and even take down an AT-ST. Does G0-T0 have a gas projector?

6 Tyber, never had to deal with assassins before what game did you play? Bossk was an assassin sent by Jabba and Tyber dealt with him.

G0-T0 is a droid he does not 'get' organics. Tyber, he gets people, gets what they want, how they will react. He is a master manipulator of beings. This is something G0-T0 cannot do. He can manipulate economies but he cannot play dejark, he says so himself. G0-T0's influence is limited because he is limited in what he can come up with. If had the power to control worlds why would he not use it to fix Onderon and Telos and Dantooine?

G0-T0 is trapped on world that is not a fortress but a house built upon sand, once the storm his it will fall.

Also you already have a scenario for Tyber killing G0-T0, blowing up his yatch. Or just shoot him, Tyber walks in can't find 'Goto' and shoots a droid in frustration, that droid turns out to be G0-T0, who was trying to slip away.

Good arguments Warren, this has been most fun.

Edit:My God I have created a monster.

Of text

Also Tyber and G0-T0 could team up.
Have Force lightning will travel

Canino's Avatar


Canino
01.04.2013 , 06:06 AM | #104
I just had this thought, it's that if Zann brings his army to Nar Shaddaa, don't you think people would think he is an invasion? I mean, most of his army would have to stand back, and not be on the planet for people to really think he doesn't want the world. Everyone would be against him, and thus help G0-T0. So no army
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
---------

Ausstig's Avatar


Ausstig
01.04.2013 , 06:17 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
I just had this thought, it's that if Zann brings his army to Nar Shaddaa, don't you think people would think he is an invasion? I mean, most of his army would have to stand back, and not be on the planet for people to really think he doesn't want the world. Everyone would be against him, and thus help G0-T0. So no army
How much support goes G0-T0 have on Nar Shaddaa? I take it not total. So Tyber could use elements of his armed forces to support a local insurrection, like Libya. Or he could buy/gain the backing of groups who are opposed to G0-T0 and feel Tyber offers them a better future.

He could always blockade it for a while wait until chaos reins and then send his troops in as 'liberators' with food and what not.

Even if people do view it as an invasion they may just switch sides as Tyber is just another gang leader, not a formal state looking to change the stus quo. I mean things would mostly stay the same only now Tyber is in charge rather then G0-T0. People dislike outsiders but Tyber would not be seen as one.
Have Force lightning will travel

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.04.2013 , 06:49 AM | #106
IMPORTANT ANNOUCEMENT: THIS DEBATE IS CLOSED

Victor: G0-T0

Tyber Zann: 42

G0-T0: 64

May I turn your attention to Round 4: Darth Malgus vs Prince Xizor of the Kaggath Heats.

Thanks for debating! That is all.