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Kaggath Heats: Tyber Zann vs G0-T0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Heats: Tyber Zann vs G0-T0

Canino's Avatar


Canino
01.03.2013 , 05:09 PM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by Ausstig View Post
But if G0-T0 is fighting a gang war on Nar Shaddaa how can he also be messing up Tybers power base? Tyber is coming from a much better starting position the only way G0-T0 can win is if he fights a guerrilla war. Which Tyber can defeat by bribing his forces and hunting down G0-T0's strong hold, which he then attacks in force (why would Tyber NOT use Nightsisters on Nar Shaddaa? Rancors on Skyscrapers sounds like win to me) and forces G0-T0 to defend him self or lose his only power base.

Another way is to find and blow up the HK factory, we know from the in-game content that the HKs have a homing beacon that can be used to trace them back to their place of origin, so Tybers' techs figure it out and then BOOM, no more HKs.

Also jedi can sense DANGER as well as intent. Ok well 1. I had too scenarios; The first had Hanharr side with Tyber before he even gets to the planet, in which case he could just destroy/sabotage the droids on the way there. In the Second one Urai didn't face Hanharr until AFTER all the HKs were destroyed, so either way the point about them is moot.

Also why would Hanharr not join Tyber? He can offer him just as much (if not more) bloodshed then G0-T0, who keep in mind likes order not chaos, so Hanharr would be disruptive to that. Maybe Tyber could bring that up "Hanharr, you are a mighty warrior, but surely you must realise G0-T0 will kill you after this join me and you can kill to your hearts content." OR some such argument.






His 'forces' can be beaten and Nar Shaddaa placed under blockade, as the planet starves (major issue for a city world) what will G0-T0 do?

Also the whole Traya thing bugs me; If you have contained the enemy threat why not wait them out? I could buy Revan being rash or impatient or just think he was unbeatable, but Tyber he just say 'Let him rot, I've got a galaxy to corrupt. HAHAHAHAHA" Also Revan surrendered, even though it was explicitly stated in the op that you can't/won't.


Any way, I never said you bribed Hanharr, he was working for Voga the Hutt the entire time. My point was that he was not loyal to G0-T0 the same way Urai is to Tyber. he wants to kill and kill a lot, G0-T0 likes order Hanharr is not conducive to order, thus he will kill him after the war. Also Tyber can offer him just as much if not more bloodshde/chance to fight Urai then G0-T0.

Also about influence, G0-T0 can influence markets and economies but he can't effect regime change directly. He could work for months to position his pieces and set up for a friendly government to take over a planet, then have Tyber come in and take out the new guy with his army.


A fun way I could see this ending is Tyber and G0-T0 teaming up to take over the Galaxy. Tyber will provide stability and military forces will G0-T0 manages the books. They would be a joint entry, meaning that they wouldn't have any allies as one fills that spot for the other.

"Jedi, Sith, Empire, Republic. Their time has past now comes the age of the Consortium." The full name is the Zann-G0-T0 or G0-T0-Zann Consortium.

:
Not going to rebut the entire post, but some things I definitely will. First, what bloodshed can come from killing droids? Last time I killed a droid it didn't bleed. So no. And I don't see how bribery would work. G0-T0 is an Exchange boss, he has money. Just buy them back, or put a bounty on them. Simple.

Next, you try killing an assassin droid. I don't think it's easy. So go for it, but it will end in death, even if he loses. Also, just send maybe four or five HK's, and make more to fight in the gang war. (Sorry this is out of order.)

Just send in your Nightsisters and rancors. See how far that goes. Hutts and everyone will fight rancors, and as stated before, just snipe the nighsister off, and the rancor will stampede.

Lastly, go ahead and blockade the planet. Really, please do. This just makes G0-T0 more powerful. Why?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Nar_Shaddaa
The smuggler will go to G0-T0, the man(droid) who promises freedom. And the smuggler won the battle.
EDIT: most of G0-T0's forces are droids that don't have to eat. Also, G0-T0 would simply tell the people to fight with him, and they would. Even the Hutts would help him, and in doing so, he become powerful. They beat the blockade and he is a hero. HE rallies once more an destroys Zann. Game over.
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
---------

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
01.03.2013 , 05:27 PM | #92
You make goods points Ausstig, except rancors on towers is not a good idea! Lol, I can just imagine the havoc and chaos as Nar Shaddaa starts raining rancors.

NOTE: I think we've exhausted this argument, (you guys are getting too good at debating :P) So I'm going to wrap this up tommorow, feel free to make final statements.

Canino's Avatar


Canino
01.03.2013 , 06:08 PM | #93
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You make goods points Ausstig, except rancors on towers is not a good idea! Lol, I can just imagine the havoc and chaos as Nar Shaddaa starts raining rancors.

NOTE: I think we've exhausted this argument, (you guys are getting too good at debating :P) So I'm going to wrap this up tommorow, feel free to make final statements.
This makes my gut tingle in G0-T0 defeat. I sure hope I'm wrong. No final thoughts yet, maybe tomorrow if there is time left.

EDIT: Good battle Ausstig, you are a great debater.
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
---------

Segastorm's Avatar


Segastorm
01.03.2013 , 06:37 PM | #94
Maybe GO-TO didn't win quite yet then....

I think this was stated earlier, but the only way GO-TO could win is if he fought on Nar Shaddaa. The tight spaces, limited movement, and other neutral factions on the planet are his playground. Outside Nar Shaddaa, he's rather weakened. He'll still have underworld stuff happening on other planets, but a lot of other planets are more open than Nar Shaddaa, which is where he falls.
I can't really offer more input unless I can get an answer to the following:

How much to the combatants know about each other?

Ausstig's Avatar


Ausstig
01.03.2013 , 07:42 PM | #95
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
Not going to rebut the entire post, but some things I definitely will. First, what bloodshed can come from killing droids? Last time I killed a droid it didn't bleed. So no. And I don't see how bribery would work. G0-T0 is an Exchange boss, he has money. Just buy them back, or put a bounty on them. Simple.

Next, you try killing an assassin droid. I don't think it's easy. So go for it, but it will end in death, even if he loses. Also, just send maybe four or five HK's, and make more to fight in the gang war. (Sorry this is out of order.)

Just send in your Nightsisters and rancors. See how far that goes. Hutts and everyone will fight rancors, and as stated before, just snipe the nighsister off, and the rancor will stampede.

Lastly, go ahead and blockade the planet. Really, please do. This just makes G0-T0 more powerful. Why?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Nar_Shaddaa
The smuggler will go to G0-T0, the man(droid) who promises freedom. And the smuggler won the battle.
EDIT: most of G0-T0's forces are droids that don't have to eat. Also, G0-T0 would simply tell the people to fight with him, and they would. Even the Hutts would help him, and in doing so, he become powerful. They beat the blockade and he is a hero. HE rallies once more an destroys Zann. Game over.
My point about bloodshed was more about just doing general work for Tyber. Also G0-T0 has the Ubese assassins and the Gand.

Also I don't get what you are saying about the HKs, they self destruct, so what that will only surprise people once and if they are taken out fast enough they won't do that, the fight on Nar Shaddaa against T3 for example.

Also your example of the battle of Nar Shaddaa is a false one. This is not the Empire it is a gang boss, one who can pay smugglers and offer them 'freedom'. Also who cares about G0-T0's droids, the 'common people' will starve and when Tyber sends down his defilers to offer them weapons to take food form G0-T0, you think they will care who is at fault? maybe a little but food or even simply saying that if G0-T0 goes they can eat again, will win people over. Chaos disrupts G0-T0 saps his power and makes it difficult for him to compete on the galactic stage.

Also the Hutts can't/won't join, it's in the op. For arguments sake though Tyber just buys them off with an offer of exclusive rights to Nar Shaddaa when the war is over, something G0-T0 cannot do.

Nar Shaddaa is not a fortress world like Malacore V. It is a city planet, it is G0-T0's only power base while Tyber has numerous systems under his direct and indirect control.

The stage is the galaxy and as such Tyber has a massive advantage that would take time to redress, time G0-T0 does not have, while dealing with Tyber attacks on Nar Shadda.

Unless they team up then Tyber Zann wins.
Have Force lightning will travel

Canino's Avatar


Canino
01.03.2013 , 07:48 PM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by Ausstig View Post
My point about bloodshed was more about just doing general work for Tyber. Also G0-T0 has the Ubese assassins and the Gand.

Also I don't get what you are saying about the HKs, they self destruct, so what that will only surprise people once and if they are taken out fast enough they won't do that, the fight on Nar Shaddaa against T3 for example.

Also your example of the battle of Nar Shaddaa is a false one. This is not the Empire it is a gang boss, one who can pay smugglers and offer them 'freedom'. Also who cares about G0-T0's droids, the 'common people' will starve and when Tyber sends down his defilers to offer them weapons to take food form G0-T0, you think they will care who is at fault? maybe a little but food or even simply saying that if G0-T0 goes they can eat again, will win people over. Chaos disrupts G0-T0 saps his power and makes it difficult for him to compete on the galactic stage.

Also the Hutts can't/won't join, it's in the op. For arguments sake though Tyber just buys them off with an offer of exclusive rights to Nar Shaddaa when the war is over, something G0-T0 cannot do.

Nar Shaddaa is not a fortress world like Malacore V. It is a city planet, it is G0-T0's only power base while Tyber has numerous systems under his direct and indirect control.

The stage is the galaxy and as such Tyber has a massive advantage that would take time to redress, time G0-T0 does not have, while dealing with Tyber attacks on Nar Shadda.

Unless they team up then Tyber Zann wins.
Some of this I agree, but the blockade would most certainty give G0-T0 an advantage. Why? The Exchange would starve as we'll, showing the people they weren't at fault. And bribery won't work, Zann isn't the only one with money.

The HKs are advantage. They self destruct, but they don't/wouldn't be captured or trapped. They assassinate from a distance, so good luck getting to them

Any help Warren?
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
---------

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.03.2013 , 07:51 PM | #97
Quote: Originally Posted by Ausstig View Post
Also I don't get what you are saying about the HKs, they self destruct, so what that will only surprise people once and if they are taken out fast enough they won't do that, the fight on Nar Shaddaa against T3 for example.
Even when they self destructed their parts were removable and were able to be used to fix up HK-47. So it is conceivable for Zann to locate the HK factory and destroy it, thus removing a solid piece of G0-T0's powerbase.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Ausstig's Avatar


Ausstig
01.03.2013 , 08:02 PM | #98
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
Some of this I agree, but the blockade would most certainty give G0-T0 an advantage. Why? The Exchange would starve as we'll, showing the people they weren't at fault. And bribery won't work, Zann isn't the only one with money.

The HKs are advantage. They self destruct, but they don't/wouldn't be captured or trapped. They assassinate from a distance, so good luck getting to them

Any help Warren?
The Exchange, at least the high ups, won't starve as much as the other people THAT will lead to resentment. Also about bribes, who is talking about money? I am talking about giving people the means to bring down the Exchange that are keeping them starving. Anger is not always rational, look at the Galactic history Vid "Breaking the Mandolerian Blockade", there were food riots on Coruscant. Or in our world, there are many occasions where staving people have overthrown a government, desperate people do desperate things, particularly when they have access to weapons.

On the HKs

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Even when they self destructed their parts were removable and were able to be used to fix up HK-47. So it is conceivable for Zann to locate the HK factory and destroy it, thus removing a solid piece of G0-T0's powerbase.

What he said.

Also if we include cut content, which I don't know if it is cannon or not, then HK-47 does trace them back to their factory after capturing one.

Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
This makes my gut tingle in G0-T0 defeat. I sure hope I'm wrong. No final thoughts yet, maybe tomorrow if there is time left.

EDIT: Good battle Ausstig, you are a great debater.
Serch your feelings you know it to be true

Also you are indeed a worthy opponent.
Have Force lightning will travel

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
01.03.2013 , 09:08 PM | #99
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
Any help Warren?
Sorry Canino, I was sick all day

A few points real quick. (Mostly on what Ausstig said)

It has already been settled that blockading Nar Shaddaa or blowing it up is a horrible idea. Everybody in the entire criminal underworld will hate Zann. Even if he bribes people, that doesn't make any sense because they'll still be losing influence and business. Also, the minute gis fleet comes out of hyperspace over Nar Shaddaa, everyone will hate him for making such an obvious power play. Messing with Nar Shaddaa = death.

I was wondering when someone would bring up killing HK factory. But if this is the height of G0-T0s power, he has enough HKs to last a lifetime. Also, HK-47 found it, but good luck destroying hundreds of HKs or bombing it, considering it's in a bunker.

On Hanharr, it does not make any sense for him to defect. It doesn't. There's too little motivation. Zann's forces were almost all organic, so if he wants bloodshed, Hangarr will side with G0-T0. There's just no reason for him to switch sides.

Also, Urai was not a Jedi, and, as stated, was very weak in the Force. To say he has precognitive abilities is wrong, seeing as we have no evidence of that. He would die just as easily as Zann at the hands of assassins and HKs.

People very much underestimate the Exchange. Tell me, what is Tyber Zann's actual galactic influence? In the game he is from, play the story mode. He's not conquering Coruscant, he's stealing something from it. He has a couple worlds on the outer rim, but its not like he captured half the galaxy. The Exchange, on the other hand, has presence across the galaxy. Stating that the Exchange is weaker is wrong. The Exchange merely has a smaller military, which is what allows it to work across the galaxy and gain so much power.

I'll make my final statement later tonight, hopefully. Sorry for being absent today, but with the point system and the scenarios presented I find it very unlikely G0-T0 will lose.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
01.03.2013 , 09:45 PM | #100
Quote: Originally Posted by Ausstig View Post
The Exchange, at least the high ups, won't starve as much as the other people THAT will lead to resentment. Also about bribes, who is talking about money? I am talking about giving people the means to bring down the Exchange that are keeping them starving. Anger is not always rational, look at the Galactic history Vid "Breaking the Mandolerian Blockade", there were food riots on Coruscant. Or in our world, there are many occasions where staving people have overthrown a government, desperate people do desperate things, particularly when they have access to weapons.
...

So your argument here is that the people of Nar Shaddaa will hate the Exchange because Zann is making them starve? It's the other way around.

Firstly, "the people" have been oppressed forever on Nar Shaddaa. That isn't going to change anytime soon. Nar Shaddaa is cut into neat little corners where gangs control the people in their territory. You think they haven't put down rebellions before? I assure you that "people" are very bad off now and if they were going to roit, they would have. They already are starving. If the blockade made them worse off, they would be more likely to join organizations like the Exchange to fight it off.

Secondly, the people that matter, aka bounty hunters and smugglers and gang leaders, will not like Zann or the blockade. They'll hate how it takes away their power and ability to trade and expand around the galaxy. I encourage you to take another look at that "Breaking the Mandalorian Blockade" video. Who did the smugglers defeat? The Mandalorians, the ones behind the blockade. Why? Because it brought them profit and fame. They didn't help take the Republic down. Because blockades are bad for business.

And lastly, even if Zann's blockade manages to survive, remember this is the Smuggler's Moon. You know, like people who run blockades for a living? Zann's "food blockade" would not be able to stand up to thousands of smugglers doing what they do best: smuggling.

In short, Nar Shaddaa is already starving. Putting a blockade in place won't stop smugglers, and will only anger every single person on Nar Shaddaa against Zann.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?