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Jugg tank PvE endgame gear question

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
Jugg tank PvE endgame gear question

Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
01.03.2013 , 05:15 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
My question is why the hell do you want 30k health as a tank? It's just more healing required.
It's not a question of "wanting" but more about just having it. Having 30k+ hp can help in situations when your healers can afford to throw more raid healing so it can be a small insurance for mess ups, not to mention there are abilities that increase your percentage of hp so having more base hp would obviously net you more health from those abilities. I don't think one would feel the need to specifically gear up to exceed 30k hp, but the availability of mods + enhancements in your server may push you to that path. It is not necessarily bad to get 30k hp, first hand experience.
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tatatan's Avatar


tatatan
01.03.2013 , 11:53 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
My question is why the hell do you want 30k health as a tank? It's just more healing required.
1. i read somewhere, the more HP you have, the more sexy you are
2. i'm not abandoning my defense stats for HP - currently having some 28+k hp, i just asked how is that possible
3. i have equipped 4 pieces of Battlemaster outfit (ofc with PvE mods in)- after leap i have 10% dmg increase for 5 seconds - better smash, better vicious slash => better agro on me, also every intercede (leap to friendly) nets me 2.3-2.4k HP - this is actually big help (and it is counted off the overall HP you have).
I actually intercede to teammates as much as i can (every 20 secs +2.4khp is nice) - i help my healer and i dump agro off my teammates, also if i intercede to healer (usually standing farther from battle) i immediately can/do jump back on target => free force scream, unstoppable, rage building ... big benefits.
4. as mentioned above, it's also insurance if something 'oh crap' happens, you survive and give your healer time to react

So you can see at least in my case it is big help for me having more HP and in my case it comes with the kind of play i do - lots of intercede...

FillionFan's Avatar


FillionFan
01.03.2013 , 03:50 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by tatatan View Post
1. i read somewhere, the more HP you have, the more sexy you are
2. i'm not abandoning my defense stats for HP - currently having some 28+k hp, i just asked how is that possible
3. i have equipped 4 pieces of Battlemaster outfit (ofc with PvE mods in)- after leap i have 10% dmg increase for 5 seconds - better smash, better vicious slash => better agro on me, also every intercede (leap to friendly) nets me 2.3-2.4k HP - this is actually big help (and it is counted off the overall HP you have).
I actually intercede to teammates as much as i can (every 20 secs +2.4khp is nice) - i help my healer and i dump agro off my teammates, also if i intercede to healer (usually standing farther from battle) i immediately can/do jump back on target => free force scream, unstoppable, rage building ... big benefits.
4. as mentioned above, it's also insurance if something 'oh crap' happens, you survive and give your healer time to react

So you can see at least in my case it is big help for me having more HP and in my case it comes with the kind of play i do - lots of intercede...
You can also get the boss out of position or get people cleaved faster than any other tank.

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Kitru
01.03.2013 , 04:26 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by FillionFan View Post
You can also get the boss out of position or get people cleaved faster than any other tank.
He's also coughing up both of the amazingly useful PvE Guardian set bonuses (better CDs and 20% better Blade Barrier) for a 10% increase to damage 20% of the time (assuming he only Leaps in after Leaping out) and that 8% heal every 20 seconds.

But, yeah, I have to wonder what content the OP has actually done as a tank: if he's *that* devoted to constant leaping, he's going to have a lot of cleaving going on though I'll admit he might have an easier time of threat than most Guardian tanks thanks to the increased damage and near constant threat drops. Even so, my gut says it would be a net loss in survivability and early fight threat (re: the only kind that matters) thanks to the lost GCDs (Leap out for no damage and Leap in for marginal damage). I can't imagine clearing any progression content with all of that leaping about.
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BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
01.03.2013 , 04:46 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Ephesia View Post
It's not a question of "wanting" but more about just having it. Having 30k+ hp can help in situations when your healers can afford to throw more raid healing so it can be a small insurance for mess ups, not to mention there are abilities that increase your percentage of hp so having more base hp would obviously net you more health from those abilities. I don't think one would feel the need to specifically gear up to exceed 30k hp, but the availability of mods + enhancements in your server may push you to that path. It is not necessarily bad to get 30k hp, first hand experience.
Proper itemization prevents most tanks from breaking 26k health (my shadow barely breaks 25k with the 3% Endurance talent) and makes it so that you're going to hit 30/ 50/ 50 on Guardians and Shadows with out breaking a sweat. My shadow's currently at 30/50/59 and is still in mostly BH/ Campaign gear (my guardian friend is at like 25/ 55/ 50). Also, Enure for Guardians (30% more Health) is a CD that's designed to give the healers more time to heal you during periods of time when the boss is doing a ****ton of damage.

Quote: Originally Posted by tatatan View Post
1. i read somewhere, the more HP you have, the more sexy you are
2. i'm not abandoning my defense stats for HP - currently having some 28+k hp, i just asked how is that possible
3. i have equipped 4 pieces of Battlemaster outfit (ofc with PvE mods in)- after leap i have 10% dmg increase for 5 seconds - better smash, better vicious slash => better agro on me, also every intercede (leap to friendly) nets me 2.3-2.4k HP - this is actually big help (and it is counted off the overall HP you have).
I actually intercede to teammates as much as i can (every 20 secs +2.4khp is nice) - i help my healer and i dump agro off my teammates, also if i intercede to healer (usually standing farther from battle) i immediately can/do jump back on target => free force scream, unstoppable, rage building ... big benefits.
4. as mentioned above, it's also insurance if something 'oh crap' happens, you survive and give your healer time to react

So you can see at least in my case it is big help for me having more HP and in my case it comes with the kind of play i do - lots of intercede...
That all sounds like a terrible way to play a Guardian/ Jugg given that you're going to throw the boss out of position and that the the PvE 2 and 4 piece bonuses vastly outweigh 10% extra damage and a 10% heal.


General Rule of Thumb when it comes to Tank's Health Pools is 3 unmitigated hits. Currently the hardest I ever get hit is around 7.8k damage (not counting flukes during Operator IX), so having 24k health (closer to 25k) is golden for me. Anything more is just making me a resource sponge.
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tatatan's Avatar


tatatan
01.03.2013 , 05:25 PM | #16
Hi,
i see that i raised some question about the gear and whatnot.
I'm unguilded, so i do not do any operation content. I do up to Lost Island. The leaping in - and out depends on boss mechanics and is not always usable, for sure - e.g. mobs that has leaps too.
But i practiced this a lot. E.g. If i leap to friend, then, already during the jump i turn my mouse backwards, and target mob back. So, after landing, i have mob already targeted and ii press the force leap back to enemy (no time wasted) it is amazing. This whole process takes really like splinter (half) of second, maybe a second (you must not lag).
I queue for FP only with my healer friend and she already know, where to position herself, so i can do this really a lot.
My only companion is Vette - i started to practice this with her first on ranged mobs, then moved to melle.
If you dont believe this is possible, take Vette, position her 25-30m from (start with ranged type, because it's not easy from start) mob - intercede to her and force charge back. I practice this all the time and i can do this even on fast melle mobs (they dont get close on me so i wouldn't be able jump back on them). Mobs using ranged is piece of cake.
I even use this on breaking mobs casting abilities (Force charge break cast), if my breakup is on cooldown - depending ofc on the time of cast (some are too fast).

This is how i do things. I run hybrid immortal / vengeance and i never have problem with holding agro. Due to increased DMG and leaping to friendlies. I consider Intercede at least same amazing utility as Force charge and sometime even better.
E.g. i see strayed mob attacking my friend healer, my taunt on coodown - intercede to her and leap back to mob and its almost hillarious, how to mob attacking her start follow me.
I do PvP a lot - 80%PvP of my time, so i'm used to Intercede and act fast.

Last thing to say, i never claim(ed) that i do some things better than others. I still learn. Dont be harsh on judging this, try it first, you'll see for yourself

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.03.2013 , 05:32 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by tatatan View Post
Last thing to say, i never claim(ed) that i do some things better than others. I still learn. Dont be harsh on judging this, try it first, you'll see for yourself
Back at release, there was a talents in Veng/Vigi that provided the Guardian Leap decrease to damage taken to the Guardian when they leaped but it was deep enough to require hybridizing. It was the precursor to the modern hybrid spec and, while it calculated at excellent performance, it just didn't end up doing that well because it was predicated on constantly bouncing around to your allies, which just wasn't viable.

What you're doing isn't really new. It's just a rehash of what's already been done so it's not really what anyone would consider optimal based upon past experience.
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tatatan's Avatar


tatatan
01.03.2013 , 06:53 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Back at release, there was a talents in Veng/Vigi that provided the Guardian Leap decrease to damage taken to the Guardian when they leaped but it was deep enough to require hybridizing. It was the precursor to the modern hybrid spec and, while it calculated at excellent performance, it just didn't end up doing that well because it was predicated on constantly bouncing around to your allies, which just wasn't viable.

What you're doing isn't really new. It's just a rehash of what's already been done so it's not really what anyone would consider optimal based upon past experience.
Ok,
i have to say, you make an assumption, if you say 'Anyone'.
1. exempt me from 'anyone' please, i like to try things for myself, it is a game and i take it as one - that means experimenting with different strategies, outfits etc (for me - maybe for you it is different) and yet i'm not the one saying someone is stupid because he combs hair on left half of head while i do it on right
2. things might work for you and not for someone else. Judging people taking self as 'benchmark' doesn't work. You make assumptions, that can prove wrong then.
3. PvE gear gives bonus of 2sec to invincible (3min cooldown) and 20% betterment of Sonic barrier, that you can gain by 9 seconds gap via force scream
4. i gain 2.4k health every 20 seconds (i use Intercede every-time it is on cooldown) + i dump agro off the target => my healer doesnt have to deal with big hits on the DPS guys. Also, i do not always jump away, i just jump e.g. on marauder dpsing just right beside me
Also as said, if i can use the mechanincs Intercede / Force charge together i gain rage, free force scream (no rage cost) and unstoppable - granting 20% all dmg decrease for 4sec and 10% of dmg increase for 5 seconds

Using Intercede (friendly leap) all the time works for me, i use it naturally i dont have to think about it. In *some* fights combined with Force charge it gives me big benefits

I dont see where you have problem with it. Or - maybe you tried and you had problem with the mechanics. But i dont - does that mean i should say 'anyone can use it', meaning, if you dont, it renders you dumb?

I'm sorry, but the word that comes to my mid is 'respect'. Some ppl (as seen in many treads on forum) swear by defensive stats, some by endurance some by hybrid, some by complet tank tree ... i would never dare to say someone that his way is considered by *anyone* wrong. Because it is *me* that's considering it wrong.

This is my last words on this.
Thank you for your opinion. Noted.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.03.2013 , 07:42 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by tatatan View Post
Also as said, if i can use the mechanincs Intercede / Force charge together i gain rage, free force scream (no rage cost) and unstoppable - granting 20% all dmg decrease for 4sec and 10% of dmg increase for 5 seconds
Those mechanics are predicated upon devoting 2 GCDs to it every 20 seconds. Guardian Leap doesn't do *any* damage and Force Leap deals less than Saber Strike does and that's assuming you don't have any downtime from having to turn around and face the target to leap at it. If you used it every CD, you'd be coughing up ~15% of your active time just for that. You're gaining 7 Focus out of it, but you're losing a *lot* of actual active time out of it. You might be more survivable and, assuming you and your buddies are perfect leapers so that you never drop cleaves on your allies, you're still going to have a hard time keeping up the threat and damage because you're devoting all of that active time to jumping around.

Quote:
Using Intercede (friendly leap) all the time works for me, i use it naturally i dont have to think about it. In *some* fights combined with Force charge it gives me big benefits
You also have admitted that you don't do any ops content. The hardest thing you do is HM LI which can be done by proficient players in Tionese gear. You're *vastly* overgeared for it and claiming that your strategy is somehow more effective than simply not using it (which is what I'm saying) when you've never done any of the content where gear is as big of a concern as as simply not being bad at the mechanics. It's also got no bosses with appreciable cleaves (Sav-Rak has one, but it's a DoT and pretty easily healed through even if it does catch more than the tank) nor does it have tank swaps or half of the other mechanics that Ops tend to.

The entire reason that the Leap-strats didn't work for the hybrids back in ye olden days of a year ago was *because* of the ops content, which is where stuff like that actually matters. You can tank most of the GF HMs as a DPS VG; just because you can do said content (and you claim that it works wonders) doesn't mean that it's even remotely effective for gear appropriate content.

You say "don't judge me based on what you've experienced" and I'm telling you to stop acting as if anything you're doing is anything approaching a challenge considering your gear. Show me some decent performance on EC or TfB and then we'll talk. Right now, you're doing content that isn't difficult whatsoever in the gear you're in atm. When you get to content where you need a full group in said gear and you still manage to do well and *don't* end up killing allies by losing threat or dropping cleaves on top of them, you can make the case for your build/strat. As it stands, I'm going to trust to all of the people that have already experimented with your strategy in content *beyond* what you're current running in appropriate gear.
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grallmate
01.03.2013 , 09:03 PM | #20
The goal of tanking is to control the fight and (more importantly) to control where incoming damage is going.

We tanks do this using threat to make the mob attack us, facing the mob away from the group so it doesn't cleave them and using mitigation to bring that damage down to a sustainable healing leave. That's a very very basic rundown on tanking.

Now assuming a boss as a 5k base damage cleave. Now it can go 2 ways. The conventional option: You stand and take it, the healer has to heal ~2.5k if you don't shield or defend it. Or your option: You Intercede a DPS and heal 2.4k. Then you take 2.5k and the DPS takes ~4k. Thats assuming you only catch 1 DPS in the cleave. Now thats 2.4k less healing you require, but its ~4k healing that the DPS now requires. That's a total of 4.1k healing required instead of 2.5k.

Now I'm not saying that's always the case. I'm sure if you got really good at it and knew the fights you could avoid accidentally cleaving your team mates but you risk actually working AGAINST the goal of being a tank by doing that. Plus you're making it harder for yourself to hold threat early on for slightly better threat management later on when you can just gain more benefit from taunting.
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