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Suggested Mercenary/Commando Changes for 1.6

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Bounty Hunter > Mercenary
Suggested Mercenary/Commando Changes for 1.6

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
12.29.2012 , 12:45 PM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
my suggestion for Missile Blast/Explosive Round was to give it a on-demand slow. the high heat cost means it cant be spammed effectively, and the low damage makes it a good candidate for a secondary effect.

obviously i think the slow should only be for Merc/Mando. PT/VG already have enough utility.

making Missile Blast/Explosive Round the proc/debuff applier for either spec would be changing the basic mechanics too far imo. part of the trade-off of a ranged class is having to stop and cast. my Run and Gun idea is the solution for when we *need* to move and shoot, but when we arent being directly attacked by melee opponents, stopping and casting usually is not a big deal. balancing the weaknesses and strengths is key; right now Merc/Mando has no strengths and all weaknesses for the most part.
let me ask you this.

why add a mechanic to a high heat ability that makes kiting more effective, rather than just remove the cast time on PS? (i would not use or like this at all...heat management while attempting to burst is bad enough, imo. god forbid you have to use IR then MB. you'll be rapid shotting your way to a revive point)

both make kiting more effective, essentually. and making PS instant hurts NOTHING. same dps in PvP and PvE. or, make it elemental damage and reduce it's damage. say on par with, VG/PT!!

that's just Merc/PT.

Arsenal needs a bit more. i'm stuck on mirroring it to more of a sniper type root/cast HIGH DPS. uniterruptable, cannot jump to while HEC is active, increased melee defense while HEC is active...(just ideas on Arsenal...i don't partake in Arse play. :P )

and both should get some sort of movement immunity for 2+v1 scenarios. (i like the idea of putting it on shield)

very minor changes, maximum results. just seems right to me.
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.29.2012 , 03:49 PM | #92
Quote: Originally Posted by T-Assassin View Post

let me ask you this.

why add a mechanic to a high heat ability that makes kiting more effective, rather than just remove the cast time on PS? (i would not use or like this at all...heat management while attempting to burst is bad enough, imo. god forbid you have to use IR then MB. you'll be rapid shotting your way to a revive point)

both make kiting more effective, essentually. and making PS instant hurts NOTHING. same dps in PvP and PvE. or, make it elemental damage and reduce it's damage. say on par with, VG/PT!!

that's just Merc/PT.

Arsenal needs a bit more. i'm stuck on mirroring it to more of a sniper type root/cast HIGH DPS. uniterruptable, cannot jump to while HEC is active, increased melee defense while HEC is active...(just ideas on Arsenal...i don't partake in Arse play. :P )

and both should get some sort of movement immunity for 2+v1 scenarios. (i like the idea of putting it on shield)

very minor changes, maximum results. just seems right to me.
first, use Rapid Shots/Hammer shot to proc the burn effect. Incendiary Round/Missile is a massive waste of heat for no reason. overall heat management is fine. as a pyrotech i can play an entire pvp match with non-stop combat and never run into trouble with heat management.

removing the cast time on Power Shot doesnt give Merc a *much* needed on demand slow effect (both as overall group utility and an escapability skill). all it does is make Pyrotech a god at kiting (arsenal would be pretty good at it too tbh), and TBH i would prefer changes that will not immediately bring the tears of the entire community to bear against us. and reducing its damage is not an option IMO. Merc damage is 100% fine where it is. it needs to fiddling with.

Missile Blast is ideal for a slow effect. high heat + low damage = not worth spamming. meaning you will not see Mercs spamming Missile Blast all over the place and perma-slowing everyone. it will be a situation-based ability, which is how it should be imo.

again, if i wanted to play a sniper i would have rolled one. i know a lot of Mercs that feel the same way. it is possible to come up with other mechanics that allow ranged classes to function in this game. youre literally asking for everything a Merc does to be changed it the sniper equivalent. if you want that playstyle, there is already a class that has it.


movement immunity? man, have you even read the whole OP? my suggestions:

- Arsenal: Jet Boost (when talented) would give 4s 30% speed boost for getting out of dodge quick
- Pyrotech: Energy Shield (when talented) would give immunity to root/slow effects for its duration

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.29.2012 , 03:51 PM | #93
ive updated the OP with a couple of minor changes.

- Run and Gun internal cooldown changed from 15 to 20s
- Arsenal: Rocket Punch should have its knockback effect returned, but w/out the root. in conjunction with Run and Gun, the root would likely be OP

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
12.29.2012 , 10:02 PM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
first, use Rapid Shots/Hammer shot to proc the burn effect. Incendiary Round/Missile is a massive waste of heat for no reason. overall heat management is fine. as a pyrotech i can play an entire pvp match with non-stop combat and never run into trouble with heat management.

removing the cast time on Power Shot doesnt give Merc a *much* needed on demand slow effect (both as overall group utility and an escapability skill). all it does is make Pyrotech a god at kiting (arsenal would be pretty good at it too tbh), and TBH i would prefer changes that will not immediately bring the tears of the entire community to bear against us. and reducing its damage is not an option IMO. Merc damage is 100% fine where it is. it needs to fiddling with.

Missile Blast is ideal for a slow effect. high heat + low damage = not worth spamming. meaning you will not see Mercs spamming Missile Blast all over the place and perma-slowing everyone. it will be a situation-based ability, which is how it should be imo.

again, if i wanted to play a sniper i would have rolled one. i know a lot of Mercs that feel the same way. it is possible to come up with other mechanics that allow ranged classes to function in this game. youre literally asking for everything a Merc does to be changed it the sniper equivalent. if you want that playstyle, there is already a class that has it.


movement immunity? man, have you even read the whole OP? my suggestions:

- Arsenal: Jet Boost (when talented) would give 4s 30% speed boost for getting out of dodge quick
- Pyrotech: Energy Shield (when talented) would give immunity to root/slow effects for its duration
i've read your posts and kinda figured i'd get this reaction.

i was merely trying to debate, not tell you how to play or get defensive.

i've been a Merc since it was Firebug. i know a little bit, too. was just adding some simple ideas. but, i understand how people get when you disagree with their ideas.
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

Nellsterzzz's Avatar


Nellsterzzz
12.29.2012 , 10:06 PM | #95
Quote:
change Cure Mind, a tier 5 box to the following: Cure now removes negative mental AND FORCE effects and heals the target for X
I do not approve of this. no other healing class can purge force debuffs except for sorc healers which is how it should be. Sorcs cant cure tech abilities and operatives/commandos cant cure force abilities. If they were to make to change to ALL healing classes then i would approve but it wouldnt make sense.

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
12.30.2012 , 04:00 AM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
Merc damage is 100% fine where it is. it needs to (sic) fiddling with.
I hear this a lot - that Merc damage output is fine. But it simply is NOT true. When piloted by a top player, damage output for Jugg & Mara is about 50% higher than for Merc (1. 2million vs. 800k). Sorc damage output is about 25% higher than Merc, with 1 million being a notable mark. Operative damage output is roughly similar to that of Merc, but with higher survivability and much higher utility. This is the nut of the problem - at the higher player skill levels, Merc dps has the lowest damage output, the lowest survivability AND the lowest utility. It is hands down the WORST subclass in the game. Meanwhile BW thinks that Merc dps is OP because it dominates PvP amongst low skill players. BW simply has been unable to understand that there is a dynamic between player skill and class balance that they have not addressed. It has been this way for 12 months.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nellsterzzz View Post
I do not approve of this. no other healing class can purge force debuffs except for sorc healers which is how it should be. Sorcs cant cure tech abilities and operatives/commandos cant cure force abilities. If they were to make to change to ALL healing classes then i would approve but it wouldnt make sense.
Why is it that any buff given to Mercs must be given to all classes? isn't the whole point of Mara, PT, Operative and Sorc that they can do something that NO ONE else can? Merc will always be the red headed stepchild until it does something no other class can. Uh, and I don't count that Merc gets laughed at more than any other class as meeting that requirement.

BW has the opportunity to move outside the box in 1.7. For example they could make Merc the anti-stealth class. Give Merc a new ability that makes Stealth Scanner invisible to enemy players and snares them should they enter the Stealth Scanner's radius while cloaked. Give Merc an actual role for a team that others can not fill.

But no. We all at this point, realize I think, that what will happen in 1.7 is a minor buff to Merc, combined with more nerfs to Merc. BW still thinks Mercs are OP. Until that changes, the problem will never be resolved.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.30.2012 , 01:59 PM | #97
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
I hear this a lot - that Merc damage output is fine. But it simply is NOT true. When piloted by a top player, damage output for Jugg & Mara is about 50% higher than for Merc (1. 2million vs. 800k). Sorc damage output is about 25% higher than Merc, with 1 million being a notable mark. Operative damage output is roughly similar to that of Merc, but with higher survivability and much higher utility. This is the nut of the problem - at the higher player skill levels, Merc dps has the lowest damage output, the lowest survivability AND the lowest utility. It is hands down the WORST subclass in the game. Meanwhile BW thinks that Merc dps is OP because it dominates PvP amongst low skill players. BW simply has been unable to understand that there is a dynamic between player skill and class balance that they have not addressed. It has been this way for 12 months.
Jugg & Mara DPS is overpowered........
and i think it is worth pointing out, that in order to even approach 800k, let alone surpass it on any class, is far more dependent on what the opposing teams composition is.
and yes, balance needs to be based on the highest level of play.

Quote:
Why is it that any buff given to Mercs must be given to all classes? isn't the whole point of Mara, PT, Operative and Sorc that they can do something that NO ONE else can? Merc will always be the red headed stepchild until it does something no other class can. Uh, and I don't count that Merc gets laughed at more than any other class as meeting that requirement.
well i do think that all healers should be able to cure all debuffs when spec'd into it. it would be cool for Merc to be unique in that way, but for well balanced PvP, all healers should have something so basic as being able to actually cure debuffs.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.30.2012 , 02:06 PM | #98
Quote: Originally Posted by T-Assassin View Post
i've read your posts and kinda figured i'd get this reaction.

i was merely trying to debate, not tell you how to play or get defensive.

i've been a Merc since it was Firebug. i know a little bit, too. was just adding some simple ideas. but, i understand how people get when you disagree with their ideas.
the suggestions you make *would not* help. the instant Power Shot debate has already run its course. click the link in the OP for the original thread if you care to read it all.

Merc =/= sniper. if you want Sniper's ranged mechanics, they already have a class for that. there is no point doing a complete makeover of Merc to make it into a Sniper with dual pistols. it would be more effective to allow Merc to re-choose their class and become a sniper straight out.

i welcome you to disagree with my ideas. such disagreements have greatly changed these suggestions from what they originally were (and improved them imo). but you need to actually defend your argument.

Nassik's Avatar


Nassik
12.31.2012 , 02:28 AM | #99
Actually, the instant power shot/tracer missile debate did not run its course. Instead, it was abandoned and replaced with inferior ideas. The notion of "fixing" the merc quickly devolved into an endless spiraling debate of extended compromises that continually reduce any possible benefit to the merc. In the end, if anything was to be implemented, the merc would end up with a .5% damage increase to heatseeker missiles, a 10% damage reduction to tracer missile, and a self-inflicted slow whenever power shot is used. This is the inevitable result of compromise. And it also becomes a stalling tactic. Whenever, if ever, this debate is resolved, SWTOR will be in version 4.8 (if the game lasts that long). And by that point there will be roughly three remaining mercs in game. And they will have endured further nerfs and will have the combined effectiveness of a womp rat in PVP.

The simple truth of the matter is that the merc needs something drastic and perhaps even a bit over-powered in order to become viable in PVP. Anything less than that is a waste of time.
July 21st 2011.. The Dark Day Bioware pissed on Australia with a little yellow paragraph.

I used to be part of the Community, now I'm just Australian

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
12.31.2012 , 02:12 PM | #100
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
the suggestions you make *would not* help. the instant Power Shot debate has already run its course. click the link in the OP for the original thread if you care to read it all.

Merc =/= sniper. if you want Sniper's ranged mechanics, they already have a class for that. there is no point doing a complete makeover of Merc to make it into a Sniper with dual pistols. it would be more effective to allow Merc to re-choose their class and become a sniper straight out.

i welcome you to disagree with my ideas. such disagreements have greatly changed these suggestions from what they originally were (and improved them imo). but you need to actually defend your argument.
copied from another post:

it's silly...the EXACT same spec, EXACT same abilities. difference is the casting vs. range. (and to be quite honest, the damage. PS vs FB/IP. FB/IP procs CDC, so on a crit you can easily achieve 3k+ hit, mostly unmitigated)

i don't know how else to say this:

why the exact same spec is better (PT/VG) from one spec to another (Merc/Comm) in PvP (and PvE!) is: uniterruptable, BURST damage.

ask yourself this:

when a SW/JK monkey jumps to a Merc, he's dead. when the same SW/JK jumps to a PT/VG he's not.

WHY?

because the PT/VG can actually kite AND do damage with his uniterruptable, instant, spammable, CGC procing, elemental damage, 100% snaring, 1.5-3.5k damaging attack.

what does the Merc do? ---> kb/interrupt/stun and spam rapid shot. weak ol' weapons damage...awesome.

it's not the utility. (taunts vs. heals, grapple vs. mezz) throw it out the window. those are preference choices, imo. i play both, and i prefer the Mercs cleanse, KB, mezz, and heals.

but, the PT/VG has DPS...

uninterruptable, elemental, instant, good damage, CGC proc'ing, 100% snaring, BURST damage.

casting and kiting, oxymoron. and without jump immunity, uninterruptable, instant, burst damage, Mercs will always be dominated in PvP, with the current classes.

that is just my point of view, for the way i play Merc (pyro/Firebug :P ).

*EDIT* oh...and RS/HIB armor pen, and FB/IP is Tech based.


it's not that i don't disagree with some, or even all, of the ideas.

i just feel there is a better chance using already in-game abilities, AC choices, and skills instead of more need for programming, testing, excuses, false hope, etc.

i'm really just amazed, since i've recently put the actaul time on my VG, how the classes are so similar, yet completely different.

i use almost the exact same rotation, yet my VG can stay moving AND his DPS is 200 pts higher versus my Merc in an IDEAL casting situation...

/fed up
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -