Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Kaggath Heats: General Grievous vs Mandalore the Ultimate

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Heats: General Grievous vs Mandalore the Ultimate

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.29.2012 , 12:20 PM | #71
I keep seeing these posts about how Grievous is nothing without Sidious and Dooku, and I have to say that that is only partially true.

Sidious had Dooku get Grievous because he wanted a capable commander for his impressive droid armies. Sidious was not whispering in Grievous' ear and telling him what to do. The war effort was Grievous (and the other military commanders). Dooku served as the political icon for the Seperatist Alliance, and did not even bother with commanding troops. We read in Dark Rendezvous that Dooku doesn't want to command troops.

As for the loss of the Seperatist Alliance. Grievous could always use the Tarkin Doctrine to keep them in line, and we know that they are all cowards so that will work.
Added Chapter 60 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.29.2012 , 12:30 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
I don't really understand this argument.

Grievous is at the height of his power, and attacking (what looks to be) a much smaller foe. Why would anybody be unhappy? Also, does this mean the Grievous gets the Sepratist War council, such as Nute Gunray? Because that only helps him, not hurts him.
That is a good point, as long as Grievous is churning out battle droids their going to keep supporting him because for them war = money. However I think my argument still stands in that other sepratists supporters e.g former senators will want nothing to do with a war against Mandalorians unless they profit from it, and not all of them do. Nor will many of them want to be led by a cyborg general. However I agree with you that the important part of the Sepratist forces still stands, the droids armies and navies. I was just pointing out that the Sepratists won't have such a great infrastructure. Still more than MtU though.

And a very good point about morale, can't see any counter arguments for that.

Speaking of counter arguments no one has yet refuted my point about Grievous invading Dxun, curious.

P.S. is it just me or do you always side with the droids?

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.29.2012 , 12:31 PM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I keep seeing these posts about how Grievous is nothing without Sidious and Dooku, and I have to say that that is only partially true.

Sidious had Dooku get Grievous because he wanted a capable commander for his impressive droid armies. Sidious was not whispering in Grievous' ear and telling him what to do. The war effort was Grievous (and the other military commanders). Dooku served as the political icon for the Seperatist Alliance, and did not even bother with commanding troops. We read in Dark Rendezvous that Dooku doesn't want to command troops.

As for the loss of the Seperatist Alliance. Grievous could always use the Tarkin Doctrine to keep them in line, and we know that they are all cowards so that will work.
Here's the thing: it's not that Greivous isn't a great commander without Dooku and Sidious telling him what to do. I believe that Greivous often made his own successful plans. But we were rating Greivous earlier based off of his war with the Republic. Sidious was often pulling the strings to expose/weaken the Republic. Imagine how well Greivous would have done in the war without Sidious. He wouldn't have been quite as successful. That's the main point here I think.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.29.2012 , 12:40 PM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Here's the thing: it's not that Greivous isn't a great commander without Dooku and Sidious telling him what to do. I believe that Greivous often made his own successful plans. But we were rating Greivous earlier based off of his war with the Republic. Sidious was often pulling the strings to expose/weaken the Republic. Imagine how well Greivous would have done in the war without Sidious. He wouldn't have been quite as successful. That's the main point here I think.
Grievous seemed to handle the Huk just fine, but that was back when he wasn't a cyborg.

At any rate. Grievous is an excellent commander in his own right and has the numbers and industry to overwhelm Mandalore. Not to mention that the destruction of any of Grievous' factories doesn't hurt Grievous that much. Remember that the CIS didn't have large garrisons unless blockading a planet, they were all stored in the Star Cruisers.

Let's take the Lucrehulk for example. One of them can carry almost 140,000 Battle Droids and 7,000 tanks. Now imagine ten or even fifty of them. That's roughly seven million droids and 350,000 tanks right there. But I doubt that's all the Lucrehulks Grievous has.

Really, Mandalore can destroy as many planets as he wants, but he wont put a real dent in Grievous' forces.

Edit: The numbers above are for the old Droid Control Ships. The new repurposed military vessels are a different story.

330,000 Battle Droids and almost 7,000 tanks aboard just one of them.
Added Chapter 60 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

mefit's Avatar


mefit
12.29.2012 , 01:14 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I keep seeing these posts about how Grievous is nothing without Sidious and Dooku, and I have to say that that is only partially true.

Sidious had Dooku get Grievous because he wanted a capable commander for his impressive droid armies. Sidious was not whispering in Grievous' ear and telling him what to do. The war effort was Grievous (and the other military commanders). Dooku served as the political icon for the Seperatist Alliance, and did not even bother with commanding troops. We read in Dark Rendezvous that Dooku doesn't want to command troops.

As for the loss of the Seperatist Alliance. Grievous could always use the Tarkin Doctrine to keep them in line, and we know that they are all cowards so that will work.
Its canon , I thought you were the great Canon keeper ?
Sidious made all the plans , made sure all the attacks by Grievous were not complete waste of time .
Grievous was the Face of the Battles , but he was just a commander doing what he was told PERIOD .

Before he was a Cyborg he was doing what he did in the movies , make attacks and run when they were losing . He almost died from it or did you forget that ?

He was not some Great General and when he was not needed no longer Anakin would have killed him like the rest !
Give a Man a Mask and he'll become his true self

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.29.2012 , 01:31 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by mefit View Post
Its canon , I thought you were the great Canon keeper ?
Sidious made all the plans , made sure all the attacks by Grievous were not complete waste of time .
Grievous was the Face of the Battles , but he was just a commander doing what he was told PERIOD .

Before he was a Cyborg he was doing what he did in the movies , make attacks and run when they were losing . He almost died from it or did you forget that ?

He was not some Great General and when he was not needed no longer Anakin would have killed him like the rest !
Sidious did not run the day-to-day affairs of the war. I have no idea where you got that from. Sidious twisted certain events for his purpose (because the Clone Wars was his war), but he didn't tell Grievous what planet to attack unless it was absolutely vital to the Plan.

And Grievous was a great general. He may have been a tool, but a useful one. Sidious had faith in Grievous' abilities, that's kinda the reason Sidious had Dooku orchestrate Grievous' 'accident.'
Added Chapter 60 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
12.29.2012 , 01:41 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
That is a good point, as long as Grievous is churning out battle droids their going to keep supporting him because for them war = money. However I think my argument still stands in that other sepratists supporters e.g former senators will want nothing to do with a war against Mandalorians unless they profit from it, and not all of them do. Nor will many of them want to be led by a cyborg general. However I agree with you that the important part of the Sepratist forces still stands, the droids armies and navies. I was just pointing out that the Sepratists won't have such a great infrastructure. Still more than MtU though.

And a very good point about morale, can't see any counter arguments for that.

Speaking of counter arguments no one has yet refuted my point about Grievous invading Dxun, curious.

P.S. is it just me or do you always side with the droids?

By that logic, we can say some Mandalorian clans will not participate in the war against droids because there is no glory in it, seeing as glory is their "profit". We have seen Mandalorian clans defy Mandalore before, and they could very well in this Kaggath. Basically what I'm getting at is that saying allies would suddenly not participate in the war because of who they are fighting doesn't make much sense. Allies will probably remain allies unless converted to the enemy side. Or else we get into this kind of argument, where we guess at who might defect. Reguardless of what I just said, if the CIS loses supporters based on fighting Mandos, the Mandalorians will lose support based on fighting droids.

Why would people not want to follow a cyborg?

The Dxun thing hasn't been refuted because its true. Grievous can invade whatever he wants and win. The Mandos will have to do hit-and-runs. But when Grievous lands his forces somewhere, it's all over.

P.S. Have you seen my signature? Droids are very underestimated in Star Wars, but I feel they're one of the most important and interesting aspects of the Star Wars universe. Just ask R2-D2, he was the real hero of the movies!
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.29.2012 , 02:24 PM | #78
You have a point Warren_ Stride, however I do think its an important factor to consider, defections etc have been accepted arguments before so I'm not about to change that. But yes it definitely is a factor affecting both sides, more so the Mandalorians but I suspect both sides will be able to keep their underlings in check.

As for Grievous, the fact is the galaxy is pretty anti-droid like the Empire are to aliens. I don't see many people finding a ruthless, menacing looking cyborg (many would probably mistake him for a droid) hell bent on the singular purpose of ridding the galaxy of Jedi and appealing leader. Especially for peace time.

And Aurbere the way I see it is that while Grievous is a brilliant tactician he is not a charismatic leader like Dooku and does not have Sidious pulling the strings to benefit the Sepratists and hinder the Republic (which he did to prolong the Clone Wars) Now Sidious was by no means commanding the Sepratist war effort, that's all down to Grievous. But he was making moves to benefit the Sepratists and hinder the Republic, which was a significant factor in CIS success during the Clone Wars. This time Grievous doesn't have that advantage, but does he need it?

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.29.2012 , 02:34 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

And Aurbere the way I see it is that while Grievous is a brilliant tactician he is not a charismatic leader like Dooku and does not have Sidious pulling the strings to benefit the Sepratists and hinder the Republic (which he did to prolong the Clone Wars) Now Sidious was by no means commanding the Sepratist war effort, that's all down to Grievous. But he was making moves to benefit the Sepratists and hinder the Republic, which was a significant factor in CIS success during the Clone Wars. This time Grievous doesn't have that advantage, but does he need it?
Didn't I say that? Eh, no problem.

Grievous isn't lacking in the tactics department, but he is lacking the schemes of Sidious and the charisma of Count Dooku. Does he need them? Against the Republic, yes. Against Mandalore, no. If Grievous wants to keep the Seperatist Council in line, he can just employ the Tarkin Doctrine. Obviously not THE Tarkin Doctrine, but something similar to it. He would be using fear to keep them in line. And for those that read Labrynth of Evil, that will work on the Nemoidians and some of the other Alliance members.

As for the schemes. I don't know. I don't see Sidious' schemes as being necessary to take down Mandalore. Grievous handled the huk just fine. I think he can handle the Mandalorians.
Added Chapter 60 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
12.29.2012 , 05:08 PM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You have a point Warren_ Stride, however I do think its an important factor to consider, defections etc have been accepted arguments before so I'm not about to change that. But yes it definitely is a factor affecting both sides, more so the Mandalorians but I suspect both sides will be able to keep their underlings in check.
Oh no, I agree completely. Considering defections is one of my favorite parts of these debates. However, defecting refers to joining the enemy's side. Saying that some allies would just choose to be "neutral" and not participate at all seems to be bad for the debate. I don't know, it just seems like a lame argument to me. But maybe that's because I prefer to stick with "at the height of their power".
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?