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Expertise : Effectiveness in pvp

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Expertise : Effectiveness in pvp

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
12.29.2012 , 06:41 AM | #1
I have multiple 50s and have pvp-ed in swtor since the game launched. Now my server, TOFN, is full of people who opt to join PVP in PVE gear. It makes me cringe and have always asked them nicely to get the free pvp gear. Seeing this phenomenon more and more prevalent, I decided to make an experiment of my own. Without further ado, please find below.


1. I put my elite war hero survivor gear on my shadow, opted for maximum expertise, and went in pvp. Smashes on me vary between 5.4k-5.9k. Railshot hits between 4.0k and 4.9k. I have 24k hp and pyro burst takes me down in a few seconds from 50% when I am stunned. This is in tank spec 31 0 10.


2. I took my sentinel, replaced the war hero gear it has with the full battle master set I had in my ship. I went in pvp, I get smashed between 5.9k- and 6.4k with a one time 6.7k. Railshot constantly hits above 5k and pyro burst kills me in electrocute or whatever their stun is called. I often see messages of the type 'defeated by flame something 4000 damage'.


3. I took my scoundrel healer and decided to mix and match. Kept warhero, put two recruit weapons, two war hero relics, custom belt and braces, black hole implants. Expertise a bit over 800. I enter pvp and the smash damage I take varies between 6.4 and 7.6k. Railshots are 6k and a pyro's burst will kill me in 1.8 seconds the time needed to cast 1 heal on myself.



If we first look at the two extremes, shadow vs scoundrel, we will see that the over 500 expertise between these two mitigates up to 1.5k damage per smash. Turning now to the sentinel, which has a tad less expertise than the shadow, we have a a difference of up to 1k per smash. It seems to me that PVP revolves more around inherent class damage mitigation than expertise. So why stack expertise over the old battle master level? Lots of theory crafting about how expertise works and what it does, my post provides PVP numbers on my toons.

tacito's Avatar


tacito
12.29.2012 , 07:31 AM | #2
Well, you also deal increased damage to other players. While at the same time making yourself harder to kill. Oh, and you heal more. I'd say that's a reason why people like expertise. Did you factor that into your tests?

TonyDragonflame's Avatar


TonyDragonflame
12.29.2012 , 07:45 AM | #3
Cryin' shadow, sentinel and scoundrel healer makes me laugh...
May the Force be with you!
Guardian vr 100 | Sentinel vr 93 | Scoundrel vr 91 | Vanguard vr 90 | Shadow v 85 | Guns v 75
Manhunter 140+k killed imps | TRE | ToFN

madtycoon's Avatar


madtycoon
12.29.2012 , 09:04 AM | #4
That's not really a good test. You're taking random smashes/rail shots from different geared players and different situations. I don't know which is best. Like theres not much difference from having 2 or 3 pve armorings in your gear. If you're only looking at expertise as damage reduction, there's really not much of a difference, because the % is so low even if you wear all pvp gear and it DR curves so quickly.

The best way to judge damage reduction is by looking at effective health (the raw damage it takes to kill you from full health). Say you have 20k health and 20% damage reduction from expertise. That 20% damage reduction basically gives you an additional 4k effective health which isn't much (like 2 more average hits heh). I might be wrong about this. They might have damage reduction scale, like it does in WoW, but i don't think it does.

Defensive cooldowns, taunts, guard, etc. give more damage reduction than expertise, thats for sure. Damage reduction is also stronger than just looking at effective health, because it also means less globals and resource from healers to top you off and a bigger effective health pool means you are less likely to be gibbed also. Kinda why full pve gear will probably never be viable just from a defensive POV. The damage reduction from expertise is also really important when its combined with taunts, defensive cooldowns, etc, because the damage you end up taking is really minor when you have say saber ward popped, the guy attacking you is taunted and you have 20%ish expertise.

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
12.29.2012 , 09:39 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyDragonflame View Post
Cryin' shadow, sentinel and scoundrel healer makes me laugh...
You must excel at reading. Where was I crying? You read cake and interpret as screwdriver. Thanks for your input. Back on topic, while I agree expertise is a factor in PVP and has a role, it seems that when it comes to do what is says on the tooltip I see full wh sages being hit for 8k by smashers. Of course, my test is not perfect and I am still collating data from pvp but in most cases being hit for so high with maximum amount of expertise seems quite interesting. Of course this goes both ways Fun to see that a 1250 expertise jugg with 1000 bonus damage will smash a person with over 1300 expertise for 5-6k and if it is a sage for probably 7-8k.


As i said earlier, on first analysis, a few hundred points of expertise changes the damage by up to 1.5k on a person. The effectiveness in damage dealt varies as well of course. So why would a sage or a scoundrel stack over 1300 expertise if he gets hit like a truck by someone with less expertise? We are talking about survivability here and expertise with a 20% damage reduction at how high crits are nowadays is quite useless. What is the difference between 9.6k crit and 8k given how fast you are killed (using a 20% dmg reduction from expertise on an 8k hit)?


They took out active relics and adrenals because the crits were too damn high and wanted to make a change in pvp. I say it worked out pretty well ...

madtycoon's Avatar


madtycoon
12.29.2012 , 09:52 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
As i said earlier, on first analysis, a few hundred points of expertise changes the damage by up to 1.5k on a person. The effectiveness in damage dealt varies as well of course. So why would a sage or a scoundrel stack over 1300 expertise if he gets hit like a truck by someone with less expertise? We are talking about survivability here and expertise with a 20% damage reduction at how high crits are nowadays is quite useless. What is the difference between 9.6k crit and 8k given how fast you are killed (using a 20% dmg reduction from expertise on an 8k hit)?


They took out active relics and adrenals because the crits were too damn high and wanted to make a change in pvp. I say it worked out pretty well ...
Heh, yeah removing adrenals and relics just made it harder to burst heal through the damage lol

Well if a couple hundred points of expertise means a difference of 1.5k damage on a sweep, then the damage reduction tooltip is deceiving (like it is with WoW's resilience) and the damage reduction scales better the more you have.

madtycoon's Avatar


madtycoon
12.29.2012 , 09:56 AM | #7
The difference from taking a 9.6k smash as opposed to an 8k smash is that its easier to heal/tank that damage and your defensive cooldowns become stronger, basically. Because when you throw a defensive and or taunt/guard into that 8k smash, its more manageable, compared to the 9.6 hit.

TonyDragonflame's Avatar


TonyDragonflame
12.29.2012 , 10:04 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
Of course this goes both ways Fun to see that a 1250 expertise jugg with 1000 bonus damage will smash a person with over 1300 expertise for 5-6k and if it is a sage for probably 7-8k.
..
^ thats me, but i am guardian with 1250 expertise. Oh yes, and i reroll my sentinel today from watchman to focus too, cuz smash or be smashed .

The reason why obvious 6-6.5 k smash makes 7-8 k is simply:

1. 5 stacks of armor penetration from sundering strike = -20% armor reduction
2. Sent's buff "inspiration" = +15% damage increase
3. Force leap with vindicator armoring bonus = +10% damage

So, 7-8 k smashes are rare, but happens, especially on bad sorcs
May the Force be with you!
Guardian vr 100 | Sentinel vr 93 | Scoundrel vr 91 | Vanguard vr 90 | Shadow v 85 | Guns v 75
Manhunter 140+k killed imps | TRE | ToFN

madtycoon's Avatar


madtycoon
12.29.2012 , 10:10 AM | #9
actually the damage reduction % on the tooltip is kind of deceiving.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=409441

has the math and a chart