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Kaggath Heats: General Grievous vs Mandalore the Ultimate

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Heats: General Grievous vs Mandalore the Ultimate

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.28.2012 , 09:45 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
lol@ Ventress, if only we didn't have that pesky rule to stop that...

As for your points. I concede I underplayed Grievous's tactical ability. However, I feel (by virtue of being smaller) there is less and less reason for MtU to spread himself thin as he doesn't NEED to protect as much in order to support his army thus negating Grievous's ability to do so. Also, notice I never said MtU's fleet would ever engage Grievous's fleet a second time just provoke or shadow. It's only after the whittling away of Grievous's supply/reinforcements that he can actually attack Grievous head on. But his fleet can still do enough damage that when it pops into a system nearby, Grievous must recall ships to overpower in the event of a battle. MtU effectively stalks Grievous's fleet while smaller Mando raiding parties dismantle Grievous's powerbase from the outside. Grievous would be trying to track the primary fleet, direct assaults on lightly defended worlds, and defend his powerbase from constant raids and harassment. And If MtU even found an important world of Grievous's, we know he has no qualms about utterly annihilating it. (granted Grievous would do the same but I think Grievous actually prefers the full land assaults and conquest whereas MtU would just as soon burn the whole thing and be done.)

I think it's a standoff between the fleets till one side's powerbase is chewed to bits. While Grievous is smart, I think MtU will just control things too well in the opening stages and have the momentum allowing him to hack at Grievous who would HAVE to win a few battles against these small forces to placate the other leaders of the CIS (ultimate problem of a Confederacy, they're not always unified) This will set up much of the second half of my scenario.

Now Aurbere, I completely see how Grievous would win. He'd drive his forces hard in a huge swath of destruction across the galaxy smothering the Mandos with numbers once they have them located and engaged (actually an early WW2 German tactic and later American one). The thing with my scenario is that MtU would know this and take the initiative, keep the Mandos mobile and aggressive. If MtU went defensive he'd be buried under a few billion megatons of droid.
I fully agree with everything you just said. Mandalore has that ability to move around the galaxy. But then again, so does Grievous. They just go about it differently. We have two very aggressive players here, but they are also very smart. I think we would see major clashes across the galaxy.

Mandalore has to play aggressive in order to be successful. Because once Grievous gets the advantage, it's pretty much over. And for Grievous to get the advantage is not impossible. I see a scenario playing out as such:

Mandalore strikes hard, very hard. Bringing his fleets to bear of Grievous' forces. At first Grievous is going to go for the numbers beat all strategy, but will quickly reconsider as Mandalore makes more strikes on CIS worlds. So now Grievous goes for a different strategy. Grievous will luse Mandalore's fleets into a trap. He will let Mandalore get in and use his superior numbers to surround and trap Mandalore's forces. Mandalore will probably escape, but now he's severely weakened while Grievous makes simultaneous attacks on Mandalore's fringe worlds. At this time, however, his factories and shipyards continue to churn out more and more droids. Eventually, Grievous' losses from the initial moves are replaced.

Mandalore's only hope now is to make an offensive. Unfortunately, he no longer has the manpower to do what he did at the beginning of the war. Grievous' numbers would eventually overpower Mandalore.

Obviously Grievous' production power will have been damaged by Mandalore's offensive, but Mandalore would have also taken heavy losses. Losses that he can't replace like Grievous can.

The battle would be grueling, but I see the industry and numbers that Grievous has prevailing after a pretty epic war.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
12.28.2012 , 09:55 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I fully agree with everything you just said. Mandalore has that ability to move around the galaxy. But then again, so does Grievous. They just go about it differently. We have two very aggressive players here, but they are also very smart. I think we would see major clashes across the galaxy.

Mandalore has to play aggressive in order to be successful. Because once Grievous gets the advantage, it's pretty much over. And for Grievous to get the advantage is not impossible. I see a scenario playing out as such:

Mandalore strikes hard, very hard. Bringing his fleets to bear of Grievous' forces. At first Grievous is going to go for the numbers beat all strategy, but will quickly reconsider as Mandalore makes more strikes on CIS worlds. So now Grievous goes for a different strategy. Grievous will luse Mandalore's fleets into a trap. He will let Mandalore get in and use his superior numbers to surround and trap Mandalore's forces. Mandalore will probably escape, but now he's severely weakened while Grievous makes simultaneous attacks on Mandalore's fringe worlds. At this time, however, his factories and shipyards continue to churn out more and more droids. Eventually, Grievous' losses from the initial moves are replaced.

Mandalore's only hope now is to make an offensive. Unfortunately, he no longer has the manpower to do what he did at the beginning of the war. Grievous' numbers would eventually overpower Mandalore.

Obviously Grievous' production power will have been damaged by Mandalore's offensive, but Mandalore would have also taken heavy losses. Losses that he can't replace like Grievous can.

The battle would be grueling, but I see the industry and numbers that Grievous has prevailing after a pretty epic war.
Wow, I think we're getting closer to a final outcome here. lol we might just write this for Beni if we keep it up.

I'll agree, save for the trap. MtU is renown for avoiding them or twisting them to his advantage. I think he'll keep a lot more of his fleet than you think and inflict a bit more damage. Other than that combine my scenario and yours and I think that's how it'll play out.

Aurbere's version = Grievous wins by overwhelming MtU via production post ambush
My version = MtU wins Picking Grievous apart as he tries to rebuild post ambush

Sound about right?

Either way it plays out almost identically. It'll come down to who gets the advantage from that second "ambush" engagement. Would you agree?

Edit: real quick, I agree that if MtU screws up even a little bit, he looses, but I think he really is just that good that he can fight a perfect strategic battle even against the brilliant (if twisted) mind of Grievous.
"Being abandoned to my enemies, abandoned by one for whom I once had considerable affection and respect, was like being murdered…and surviving."
-Darth Caedus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.28.2012 , 10:17 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Wow, I think we're getting closer to a final outcome here. lol we might just write this for Beni if we keep it up.

I'll agree, save for the trap. MtU is renown for avoiding them or twisting them to his advantage. I think he'll keep a lot more of his fleet than you think and inflict a bit more damage. Other than that combine my scenario and yours and I think that's how it'll play out.

Aurbere's version = Grievous wins by overwhelming MtU via production post ambush
My version = MtU wins Picking Grievous apart as he tries to rebuild post ambush

Sound about right?

Either way it plays out almost identically. It'll come down to who gets the advantage from that second "ambush" engagement. Would you agree?

Edit: real quick, I agree that if MtU screws up even a little bit, he looses, but I think he really is just that good that he can fight a perfect strategic battle even against the brilliant (if twisted) mind of Grievous.
We are coming to a conclusion for sure. They can both make traps and avoid traps. However, I think Grievous would have the advantage in making traps, simply because of his numbers advantage. Either way, I think they are tactically even.

We should also remember Ventress. If Grievous sees that the Mandalorians are able to outwit him and avoid his traps, he can just send Ventress in to kill MtU.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

mefit's Avatar


mefit
12.28.2012 , 11:09 PM | #54
1 on 1 , I give it to Grievous . I could be wrong but having 4 arms wielding lightsabers is an advantage .

Powerbase , I give it to MTU ! It took a Republic Fleet full of Jedi and Jedi Masters to bring him down . Was no Palpatine playing both sides or games . The Battle was between 2 groups .

Ventress and Grievous largely ran from fights with skills Combatants , until Grievous was at a dead end and had to face Obi-Wan . With no where to run he died .
Ventress is a glorified Apprentice who was not even respected by Dooku who never gave her the title and called her unworthy of it .
If it was not for the Master Chess player Palpatine both Grievous and Ventress would not have made it far .

I almost want to go as far to say MtU would kill Ventress , but that would be pure Opinion .
Mandos like them or not are Warriors who live for battle and do not fear death , something both Ventress and Grievous do !

The begining of the battle will be in Grievous's favor but after awhile the aggressive Mando's will start to crush the Robot Fleet ! Just like the Jedi , MtU will learn quickly that Grievous is a Coward and will run leaving ships that blow in his gettaway .Likely killing Ventress as Grievous cares only for saving his own skin .

Once this hits the ground , Grievous will be trapped as large amount of his own planning was from Sidious and without him telling Grievous what to do next he will run till the end of the line . The Mandos will do as they do best and rip through the Driod Army hungering for Grievous to kill . As they will get no reward for killing Driods.

MtU will likely never get a one on one , which would likely be his doom . The Mando army will be in such a mode to kill , by the time MtU gets to the Ground all that will be left of Grievous is his head and chest .

Almost all the plans Grievous was involved in came from either Sidious or Dooku . In large Grievous was the face to give the orders . I guess that is forgotten , but without Dooku or Sidious , Grievous is a grasping from Breath 4 Arm Light show that largely only beat less skilled Jedi , much like Ventress . Both ending most fights in running for their own lives . Ventress while with soo much promise was shafted by uncaring Masters who did not give her the skills needed to reach her full abilities and skills.
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YoshiRaphElan's Avatar


YoshiRaphElan
12.28.2012 , 11:27 PM | #55
Shoot, Cassus is a genius, while Ventress and Grievous are pretty much brute force fighters. I gotta give it to Mandalore this time.

TheSelkie's Avatar


TheSelkie
12.28.2012 , 11:54 PM | #56
I'm far from an expert, and it seems that pretty much everyone here has a better knowledge of the EU than me, but I'd hesitate to call it either way without agreeing on very rough figures for troop numbers (there's a BIG difference between estimates of over a trillion and a quintillion - one is a million times larger than the other). It's the difference between the mandalorians being outnumbered 2 million to 1 or 2 trillion to 1. Either way, I'd give it to Grevious.

Luminen's Avatar


Luminen
12.29.2012 , 12:06 AM | #57
I would still have to give it to Grievous. Grievous has, as already state, a tremendous numbers advantage. Even if the quality of his warriors are less, the sheer numbers provide a great advantage. Mandalore did well against a weakened Republic before Jedi got involved, while Grievous had a full revitalized Republic shaking to its foundation. And let us not forget Ventress's involvement in the matter. Grievous alone had turned a war around from a loss to an almost victory,(This being before his cybernetic days, and the 'almost' because the Republic intervened) and is a brilliant tactician. He may not seem like it at times, but he knows how to use his numbers. And then we have Ventress, a skilled assassin and Dark Jedi who can go 1 v 1 with the most powerful of Jedi. I know little of Cassus Fett, but I am a firm believer that few non-force users, even mandalorians, can best Grievous or Ventress in a 1 v 1 battle. (Feel free to inform me on Cassus Fett, but both Ventress and Grievous's accomplishments speak for themselves) Grievouses has the forces he could essentlially split his fleets and power base in half and give Ventress forces to act on her own, giving Mandalore the Ultimate almost two different enemies, as he would now have to account for both of their actions. ((This would only work if this was used, whether Grievous utilizes this would be left to be seen)) WIth two brilliant and different tacticians, who can also lead their troops and force a path of blood through a battlefield, I would have to still say Grievous has this in the bag. Mandalore would no doubt get a few major victories, but Grievous would have it where it counts.
"Sometimes one must sacrifice greatly in order to keep moving forward."

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
12.29.2012 , 12:49 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
We are coming to a conclusion for sure. They can both make traps and avoid traps. However, I think Grievous would have the advantage in making traps, simply because of his numbers advantage. Either way, I think they are tactically even.

We should also remember Ventress. If Grievous sees that the Mandalorians are able to outwit him and avoid his traps, he can just send Ventress in to kill MtU.
Ventress... I don't think she will kill MtU. First, she has to get through an army of Mandos all foaming at the mouth for a chance to take her on. If she manages that, she'll be worn out and MtU is no slouch in his Beskar armor. Meanwhile, Fett can still make command decisions for the fleet. Heck MtU could even be killed and Fett would just take command and finish it, blasting Grievous's command ship apart. I feel like these allies present a case of Mutually Assured Destruction.

As for the traps, yeah there's no way around it. Like we've both stated, it'll come down to Grievous's trap in every scenario.

My opinion
Spoiler


I say whoever gets the advantage leaving that engagement will win the Kaggath.
"Being abandoned to my enemies, abandoned by one for whom I once had considerable affection and respect, was like being murdered…and surviving."
-Darth Caedus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.29.2012 , 06:27 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Ventress... I don't think she will kill MtU. First, she has to get through an army of Mandos all foaming at the mouth for a chance to take her on. If she manages that, she'll be worn out and MtU is no slouch in his Beskar armor. Meanwhile, Fett can still make command decisions for the fleet. Heck MtU could even be killed and Fett would just take command and finish it, blasting Grievous's command ship apart. I feel like these allies present a case of Mutually Assured Destruction.

As for the traps, yeah there's no way around it. Like we've both stated, it'll come down to Grievous's trap in every scenario.

My opinion
Spoiler


I say whoever gets the advantage leaving that engagement will win the Kaggath.
Just to clarify, when the opponent is killed, the other wins. The allies can't take their place, so if either Grievous or MtU is killed the Kaggath is over.

This is actually an important factor, I'm not sure of MtU has the manpower to kill Grievous. Every time he springs a trap Grievous will escape (and remember Grievous can afford not to be on the front lines in every engagement), and MtU simply cannot afford to sleep setting traps with Grievous whittling away at his forces in every one. While Grievous can simply replace lost forces. Neither can MtU afford multiple strikes. While Grievous can attack him on multiple fronts, and on the ground. However he does have a tactical advantage in space as he will no doubt employ guerrilla tactics. If I where Grievous I'd force MtU into a ground engagement, where Grievous has a big advantage. Grievous has numerous bases across the galaxy which no doubt have planetary shields (or at least they can be installed). So Grievous holes himself up on say Cato Nemoidia or Murkana, blockades the planet and waits for MtU to attack, while striking at his forces with his fleets etc.

Or a more likely scenario is that Grievous finds where MtU is striking from (Dxun) and launches an invasion, checkmate.

Canino's Avatar


Canino
12.29.2012 , 07:32 AM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
The SE won because of their Force users (I still question that decision but it doesn't matter) and last time I checked, Mandalore didn't have Force users. Not only that, but the Mandalorians pretty much fell apart when Revan and the Revanchists joined the war. They still put up a good fight, but there was a clear change in momentum when Revan joined the war.

Grievous was able to fight a war against some of the most powerful Jedi ever. Not only that, but Grievous was able to keep up with the massive shipyards of Kuat and Rothana. Mandalore faced a Republic that was still damaged from the devastation that Exar Kun brought about during the Great Sith War. No one questions the capabilities of the Mandalorians, but they didn't face the monster that was the Republic industry at the time of the Clone Wars. Grievous was able to force the Republic to spread its forces thin across the galaxy.

The Mandalorians would be confronted by an unlimited number of battle droids, heavy assault vehicles and fleets that could contend with some of the most powerful ships constructed. Mandalore doesn't have Force users like the Republic. He doesn't have billions of soldiers. And he doesn't have the industrial might to to stop Grievous.

We know Mandalorians can beat the standard B1 Battle Droids, but can they stop the merciless assault from AAT's, Hailfire droids, Spider Droids, Dwarf Spider Droids etc.? No. He just doesn't have the forces to do it. Each battle (even a victory) is going to wear down Mandalore's numbers. The casualties stack up, especially when you don't have limitless numbers like the CIS. Losses don't matter when you can simply make more. Mandalore doesn't have that luxury.

Not to mention the fact that Grievous can just send Ventress to kill Mandalore and Fett. And she can kill them.

Mandalore wins a few battles, but he gets overwhelmed by the sheer numbers and production capabilities of the CIS.
Way to kill my post Aurbere. Anyway, I definitely agree about the two scenarios brewing. I can totally see where you both are coming from.

Now to Ventress. She will be the factor that decides the fight. If she was to assassinate Mandalore, there would be spots that Mandalore could win. Notably if he was able to knock her second sabe away from her Ventress would be at a disadvantage. Also, she fought with Makashi and Jar'Kai, which would only really help her if in a duel(I don't know for sure). Also, if she was to fail, she hated criticism, which she wold most definitely receive from Grievious. If he pushed her enough, Ventress could fight him-something she has done before, and won.

Sadly, I don't see it being that easy. I think she might just kill Mandalore and end the Kaggath. Any help here fellow Mandalorians?
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
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