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Kaggath Heats: General Grievous vs Mandalore the Ultimate

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Heats: General Grievous vs Mandalore the Ultimate

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.28.2012 , 01:06 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by BrandonSM View Post
In a duel, Grevious gets it any day.


Space-Battle, I'd give it Mandalore. He has far greater accomplishments in conquering than anything else on his list.
I don't know much about the Mandalorian Fleet. But they did seem pretty impressive... and remember the CIS ships are only converted commerce ships.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.28.2012 , 02:13 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I don't know much about the Mandalorian Fleet. But they did seem pretty impressive... and remember the CIS ships are only converted commerce ships.
For converted commerce ships they seemed to do well against military vessels.

Either way. I will agree that Mandalore has it where it counts, but the sheer numbers and production capabilities of the CIS win it.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

Luminen's Avatar


Luminen
12.28.2012 , 05:23 PM | #43
I am not going to go into a large lengthy explanation regarding my choice(At least I don't think I am), but I personally believe General Grievous would be 'capable' of winning this Kaggath.

Mandalore the Ultimate, as any Mandalore is, is quite the fighter and strategist. All mandalorians are well known for their skill and battle prowess thanks to the customs of their culture. We can go ahead and look at the Mandalorian Wars as an example of how well skilled these men and their leader are, outwitting and fighting with a brutality that severely threatened the Republic. All Mandalorians are strong in their own right and their leader more often than not takes that skill even farther.

However General Grievous, depending on the deeper specifications of his 'Power Base'. One could say that the Mandalorians only got as far as they did in their war since the Republic was lacking in the 'shoot to kill' department and had their morals, while when Revan came in he fought without fear and with intent to kill. Grievous nor his droids will have any probably doing whatever it takes to succeed, and Grievous himself is an incredible strategist. Before his time as the infamous cyborg he was a normal Kaleesh and fought in what I believe was the Huk Wars, a invasion of his homeworld by large technologically advanced insects. When Grievous entered the war, which they were losing at this point, managed to almost single handedly(Easily disputable, but there is a notable change as soon as he steppe in) change the tide of the war, amassing over I believe 40 kills at age 12. He even managed to push back the invaders and take the fight to their home planet, only through republic interference was his people defeated. Grievous alone is a powerful opponent capable of killing multiple jedi in a single battle, and is quite capable of defeating Mandalore the Ultimate in a 1 v 1 fight. His skill with his four lightsabers should easily overwhelm Mandalore, and before his cyborg days Grievous was incredibly skilled with a ranged rifle.

I think that alone, even with the Mandalorians great skill and knowledge in War, gives Grievous a tactical advantage. However the difference is that Grievous will be fighting with droids, not his trusted Kaleesh whom he could once rally. Another difference would involve the fact that Grievous's natural aggressiveness was changed in the surgery that rendered him a cyborg, which could greatly change the strategist in him that turned around the Huk Wars. Grievous alone is a powerful opponent capable of killing multiple jedi in a single battle. However his army consisting of droids is the weak point which I can say with certainty most Mandalorians wouldn't have a lick of trouble tearing apart. It falls down to the specifications of the numbers and the men/machines making up each army to decide who would win.
"Sometimes one must sacrifice greatly in order to keep moving forward."

Harlequintwo's Avatar


Harlequintwo
12.28.2012 , 06:24 PM | #44
I'm giving this one to Grievous.

Land Battle: Say for example that we're not talking about the entire CIS forces in the galaxy, on a standard battlefield there's still going to be more droids, but the Mandalorians have the upper hand. Being superior warriors they could just hold back the droids so that their elite could make decisive strikes. The water muddies however when we throw in Ventress, elite battle droids, CIS vehicles, etc, so this would have to be a draw.

Space Battle: Whilst the Mandalorians have some strong ships and fighter pilots going for them, I'm going to have to draw attention to CIS powerhouses such as the Malevolence, and the vast variety of dreadnoughts under Grievous' command. Maybe it would be close and I can see Mandos excelling on a boarding raid, but this one has to go to the Separatists.

1v1 Duel: Mandalore is a strong fighter, but so is Grievous. Without the General's cyborg upgrades they would have been on par, perhaps with MtU coming out a bit ahead. However, with four sabers and the other cyborg boosts, Grievous has the definite upper hand. Yeah there is the point about beskar, but one of those sabers has to get through eventually.

So yeah, Grievous.

Canino's Avatar


Canino
12.28.2012 , 08:19 PM | #45
This is my post on the behalf of Mandalore. I have a sinking feeling this is for not, and that Grievious will in, but I have to play devils advocate here.

Quote:
Mandalore just doesn't have the numbers to keep up with Grievous.
Neither did the SE, but they won. Also, Mandalore was known to recruit other species into his armies. He did so when he became Mandalore and wanted to rebuild the clans. He also used politics to help build his army. Although this may not help to much(no outside parties) he may be able to get some key CIS member to join his side. He is also known to test his enemy to see if he would win a battle, and would not easily fall into a trap or other situation that he couldn't win.

Mandalore didn't lose. He almost never did. He tried to always win, even to the point of nuclear attacks just to make sure his of his victory. He sacked the entire world of Althir. He destroyed much of the planet Cathar (this is why they hate Mandalorians.) He nearly made Cathar extinct when he bombed their planet! What says he wouldn't do it again?

As I said earlier, he can destroy the super tanks with explosives and even if they cripple him, there were only 24 ever recorded.

Now to Cassus Fett- the man who turned the Mandalorians into a war machine. He standardized Neo-Crusader armor, and led the siege of Taris. He massacred the Cathar people, and tested the strength of Republic soldiers and ships with Mandalore. He was Mandalore's second in command, and an excellent fighter and strategist. Neo-Crusaders where at first a cult, but Fett began to spread the word to Mandalore, who encouraged it. He didn't simply conquer worlds, Fett made them Mandalorian worlds, and gave them his culture.

Fett was never even killed, merely presumed dead. He killed the captain of a Republic flagship and lived. He even became the most wanted man in the galaxy. Fett killed thousands of people simply for revenge, or honor. He used trickery in his tactics and was as ruthless as you can be. The CIS would know next to nothing about him either, as even the Republic who fought him thought he was a mere thug.

Alright, those are my arguments for Mandalore. Debate them if you must, but I will defend my post to the death!
STATEMENT: I'm just a simple assassin...I mean bodyguard, master. You have nothing to fear.
---------

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
12.28.2012 , 08:37 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Don't be too sure. Remember that Mandalore was fighting a severely weakened Republic. General Grievous had to contend with the Republic that could churn out ships and soldiers very quickly.

Mandalore just doesn't have the numbers to keep up with Grievous. The CIS armies were able to out number the Clone Army by a lot. And the Clone Army was roughly one billion soldiers. Not to mention the CIS fleet was able to keep up with the production capabilities of the Kuat Drive Yards. It wasn't until near the end of the war that the leadership of the Jedi and the industry of the Galactic Republic that the CIS was defeated. Not to mention the failed attack on Coruscant.

Mandalore just doesn't have the industry that the Galactic Republic had. While his soldiers and ships are better (arguably), he doesn't have the ability to match the production capabilities that General Grievous has. While I am a firm believer in Quality>Quantity, in this case Quantity wins. Mandalore just can't keep up.
War forges, while not the equivalent of the Kuat Drive Yards or other such production facilities. These installations would serve a similar purpose to the droid's factories and I feel could keep the Mandos in the fight for a short-early mid length fight. It's just the longer the fight, the worse things will look for MtU.

My interpretation of how this would happen. The Mandos would stab the CIS a few times prompting Grievous to overreach in a massive counter to conquer many worlds. MtU would set a trap, whereby he sacks a planet or two (away from his forges) and makes his own strike at the CIS main fleet. A bold move, Grievous would at first laugh and try to fight and *NOT recall any ships because he wants a total victory. Quickly though, the sheer firepower coming from the Mando fleet will carve its way to surround and slowly choke the CIS fleet. Now Grievous begins to get wary. He preps his escape rout and recalls ships to assist him. Unfortunately for him MtU orders a final push and begins to rip holes in the center of the CIS fleet and heads for Grievous's command ship to face his rival in combat. Grievous runs, orders the fleet to retreat (loosing much of it) and groups up with another fleet that had just arrived. MtU quickly retreats.

From here Grievous is skittish when confronted with MtU's main fleet. Thus he constantly recalls ships to his aid. From here MtU uses this to pick off poorly defended CIS factories and smaller fleets. (in which Mando quality utterly decimates the CIS who have lost much of their numbers in these engagements). Grievous will set numerous traps but MtU will use these to strike positions heavily while he sacrifices a smaller force in the trap. If MtU ends up getting enough factories. He will then just out produce Grievous (hard to believe I know) but that allows MtU to finally crush Grievous's main fleet. MtU will see Grievous as a coward by now so he'll have no desire to fight in 1v1 combat. The end.
"Being abandoned to my enemies, abandoned by one for whom I once had considerable affection and respect, was like being murdered…and surviving."
-Darth Caedus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.28.2012 , 08:45 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
This is my post on the behalf of Mandalore. I have a sinking feeling this is for not, and that Grievious will in, but I have to play devils advocate here.



Neither did the SE, but they won. Also, Mandalore was known to recruit other species into his armies. He did so when he became Mandalore and wanted to rebuild the clans. He also used politics to help build his army. Although this may not help to much(no outside parties) he may be able to get some key CIS member to join his side. He is also known to test his enemy to see if he would win a battle, and would not easily fall into a trap or other situation that he couldn't win.

Mandalore didn't lose. He almost never did. He tried to always win, even to the point of nuclear attacks just to make sure his of his victory. He sacked the entire world of Althir. He destroyed much of the planet Cathar (this is why they hate Mandalorians.) He nearly made Cathar extinct when he bombed their planet! What says he wouldn't do it again?

As I said earlier, he can destroy the super tanks with explosives and even if they cripple him, there were only 24 ever recorded.

Now to Cassus Fett- the man who turned the Mandalorians into a war machine. He standardized Neo-Crusader armor, and led the siege of Taris. He massacred the Cathar people, and tested the strength of Republic soldiers and ships with Mandalore. He was Mandalore's second in command, and an excellent fighter and strategist. Neo-Crusaders where at first a cult, but Fett began to spread the word to Mandalore, who encouraged it. He didn't simply conquer worlds, Fett made them Mandalorian worlds, and gave them his culture.

Fett was never even killed, merely presumed dead. He killed the captain of a Republic flagship and lived. He even became the most wanted man in the galaxy. Fett killed thousands of people simply for revenge, or honor. He used trickery in his tactics and was as ruthless as you can be. The CIS would know next to nothing about him either, as even the Republic who fought him thought he was a mere thug.

Alright, those are my arguments for Mandalore. Debate them if you must, but I will defend my post to the death!
The SE won because of their Force users (I still question that decision but it doesn't matter) and last time I checked, Mandalore didn't have Force users. Not only that, but the Mandalorians pretty much fell apart when Revan and the Revanchists joined the war. They still put up a good fight, but there was a clear change in momentum when Revan joined the war.

Grievous was able to fight a war against some of the most powerful Jedi ever. Not only that, but Grievous was able to keep up with the massive shipyards of Kuat and Rothana. Mandalore faced a Republic that was still damaged from the devastation that Exar Kun brought about during the Great Sith War. No one questions the capabilities of the Mandalorians, but they didn't face the monster that was the Republic industry at the time of the Clone Wars. Grievous was able to force the Republic to spread its forces thin across the galaxy.

The Mandalorians would be confronted by an unlimited number of battle droids, heavy assault vehicles and fleets that could contend with some of the most powerful ships constructed. Mandalore doesn't have Force users like the Republic. He doesn't have billions of soldiers. And he doesn't have the industrial might to to stop Grievous.

We know Mandalorians can beat the standard B1 Battle Droids, but can they stop the merciless assault from AAT's, Hailfire droids, Spider Droids, Dwarf Spider Droids etc.? No. He just doesn't have the forces to do it. Each battle (even a victory) is going to wear down Mandalore's numbers. The casualties stack up, especially when you don't have limitless numbers like the CIS. Losses don't matter when you can simply make more. Mandalore doesn't have that luxury.

Not to mention the fact that Grievous can just send Ventress to kill Mandalore and Fett. And she can kill them.

Mandalore wins a few battles, but he gets overwhelmed by the sheer numbers and production capabilities of the CIS.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.28.2012 , 09:00 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
War forges, while not the equivalent of the Kuat Drive Yards or other such production facilities. These installations would serve a similar purpose to the droid's factories and I feel could keep the Mandos in the fight for a short-early mid length fight. It's just the longer the fight, the worse things will look for MtU.

My interpretation of how this would happen. The Mandos would stab the CIS a few times prompting Grievous to overreach in a massive counter to conquer many worlds. MtU would set a trap, whereby he sacks a planet or two (away from his forges) and makes his own strike at the CIS main fleet. A bold move, Grievous would at first laugh and try to fight and *NOT recall any ships because he wants a total victory. Quickly though, the sheer firepower coming from the Mando fleet will carve its way to surround and slowly choke the CIS fleet. Now Grievous begins to get wary. He preps his escape rout and recalls ships to assist him. Unfortunately for him MtU orders a final push and begins to rip holes in the center of the CIS fleet and heads for Grievous's command ship to face his rival in combat. Grievous runs, orders the fleet to retreat (loosing much of it) and groups up with another fleet that had just arrived. MtU quickly retreats.

From here Grievous is skittish when confronted with MtU's main fleet. Thus he constantly recalls ships to his aid. From here MtU uses this to pick off poorly defended CIS factories and smaller fleets. (in which Mando quality utterly decimates the CIS who have lost much of their numbers in these engagements). Grievous will set numerous traps but MtU will use these to strike positions heavily while he sacrifices a smaller force in the trap. If MtU ends up getting enough factories. He will then just out produce Grievous (hard to believe I know) but that allows MtU to finally crush Grievous's main fleet. MtU will see Grievous as a coward by now so he'll have no desire to fight in 1v1 combat. The end.
A valid point, but you haven't taken a few things into account.

Remember that Grievous himself is an excellent tactician. He was able to outmaneuver the Jedi and force them to spread their forces thin across the galaxy. Again note that Grievous was facing a far larger Republic military than the Mandalorians as well as the Jedi. The Mandalorians were bested by the Revanchists who had severely fewer numbers than the PT Jedi (and obviously less powerful ones).

Grievous also has limitless numbers. Mandalore does not. Grievous can make more droids. Mandalore can not. Mandalore can win battles, but each battle will chip away at Mandalore's forces. He also has superior vehicles. These vehicles will allow Grievous to win the land battles pretty easily.

As to space engagements. This is more difficult to call. Mandalore has superior ships, but again he doesn't have the numbers for it. Grievous' fleets, and ability to build more ships quickly, allowed him to outmaneuver the Republic on several occassions and spread its forces thin across the galaxy.

IF your scenario plays out, you will find that not everything will go according to plan. Grievous can bring all of those numbers to bear on Mandalore's fleets. You overestimate Mandalore's fleets. Again we can visit the Mandalore Wars to see how his fleet fared against fleets of significantly fewer numbers than Grievous'. Once Revan joined the war, the Mandalorians were quickly pushed back and routed. Grievous not only has the numbers to do this, but the tactical know-how to do it as well.

Or he can have Ventress assassinate Mandalore.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
12.28.2012 , 09:26 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]IF your scenario plays out, you will find that not everything will go according to plan. Grievous can bring all of those numbers to bear on Mandalore's fleets. You overestimate Mandalore's fleets. Again we can visit the Mandalore Wars to see how his fleet fared against fleets of significantly fewer numbers than Grievous'. Once Revan joined the war, the Mandalorians were quickly pushed back and routed. Grievous not only has the numbers to do this, but the tactical know-how to do it as well./COLOR]
lol@ Ventress, if only we didn't have that pesky rule to stop that...

As for your points. I concede I underplayed Grievous's tactical ability. However, I feel (by virtue of being smaller) there is less and less reason for MtU to spread himself thin as he doesn't NEED to protect as much in order to support his army thus negating Grievous's ability to do so. Also, notice I never said MtU's fleet would ever engage Grievous's fleet a second time just provoke or shadow. It's only after the whittling away of Grievous's supply/reinforcements that he can actually attack Grievous head on. But his fleet can still do enough damage that when it pops into a system nearby, Grievous must recall ships to overpower in the event of a battle. MtU effectively stalks Grievous's fleet while smaller Mando raiding parties dismantle Grievous's powerbase from the outside. Grievous would be trying to track the primary fleet, direct assaults on lightly defended worlds, and defend his powerbase from constant raids and harassment. And If MtU even found an important world of Grievous's, we know he has no qualms about utterly annihilating it. (granted Grievous would do the same but I think Grievous actually prefers the full land assaults and conquest whereas MtU would just as soon burn the whole thing and be done.)

I think it's a standoff between the fleets till one side's powerbase is chewed to bits. While Grievous is smart, I think MtU will just control things too well in the opening stages and have the momentum allowing him to hack at Grievous who would HAVE to win a few battles against these small forces to placate the other leaders of the CIS (ultimate problem of a Confederacy, they're not always unified) This will set up much of the second half of my scenario.

Now Aurbere, I completely see how Grievous would win. He'd drive his forces hard in a huge swath of destruction across the galaxy smothering the Mandos with numbers once they have them located and engaged (actually an early WW2 German tactic and later American one). The thing with my scenario is that MtU would know this and take the initiative, keep the Mandos mobile and aggressive. If MtU went defensive he'd be buried under a few billion megatons of droid.
"Being abandoned to my enemies, abandoned by one for whom I once had considerable affection and respect, was like being murdered…and surviving."
-Darth Caedus

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.28.2012 , 09:41 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Don't be too sure. Remember that Mandalore was fighting a severely weakened Republic. General Grievous had to contend with the Republic that could churn out ships and soldiers very quickly.

Mandalore just doesn't have the numbers to keep up with Grievous. The CIS armies were able to out number the Clone Army by a lot. And the Clone Army was roughly one billion soldiers. Not to mention the CIS fleet was able to keep up with the production capabilities of the Kuat Drive Yards. It wasn't until near the end of the war that the leadership of the Jedi and the industry of the Galactic Republic that the CIS was defeated. Not to mention the failed attack on Coruscant.

Mandalore just doesn't have the industry that the Galactic Republic had. While his soldiers and ships are better (arguably), he doesn't have the ability to match the production capabilities that General Grievous has. While I am a firm believer in Quality>Quantity, in this case Quantity wins. Mandalore just can't keep up.
Well said. In the end, numbers and industry win it for Greivous.