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Vader vs Revan


mefit's Avatar


mefit
12.28.2012 , 02:01 PM | #401
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Not sure you should have added that 1st bit, cause now hes gonna ask. "Well if hes the 3rd best pilot in the Order, then how come he got shot down?"

See! I beat him to the punch!
Who cares first , second , or third ? He could be the BEST EVER and by these Debats , him dieing to Clone Troopers would make every Force Using Pilot under him look bad .

This is not what I am saying Wolf , I am saying maybe there needs to be less Biased Attacks on Revan because everyones Favorite Characters can be torn down just the same.

If the FORUM HISTORIANS or CANON POLICE , whatever you guys want to be called want to correct the Reven Fanboys it should be done with less Biased and upmost just tear him down tactics.

I cannot respect anyone saying the follow Canon or Lore but just BIASEDLY attack Revan out of some Personal Dislike .
Give a Man a Mask and he'll become his true self

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.28.2012 , 02:10 PM | #402
Quote: Originally Posted by mefit View Post
I did but at this point I am going to discard anything you write as it is wroten by a Biased Hand .

Revan is in my Top 10 favorite StarWars Characters and you belittle his character with extreme Bias ! Why should I respect anything you write when you Protect Plo Koon and put down Revan ?

Revan won Wars, Plo Koon lost the only War he seen ! Revan Lead Generals , Plo Koon was a General .

Take it how you will but as long as you show Biased when it suits you , I will never respect your Debat .

I am not arguing Revan will lose to Vader , I am arguing the point you are saying that he would get Steam Rolled.
Plo Koon would lose to Vader too !
Don't know how my threads (besides the Revan ones) are biased, but whatever.

Revan is my third favorite Star Wars character. Actually, no. Darth Revan is.

Actually, had Order 66 not been initiated, the Republic would have won the war. And Plo Koon was one of the leading generals. He was a High General, which means that lesser Jedi would be under his command.

Of course Plo Koon would lose to Vader! Many of Plo Koon's most powerful abilities wouldn't really affect him. Force Lightning? Nope. Alter Environment? Maybe the removal of oxygen, but even then it is severely limited. Djem So? Plo Koon is arguably the second greatest practitioner of Djem So, Vader is the number 1.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

mefit's Avatar


mefit
12.28.2012 , 03:17 PM | #403
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Don't know how my threads (besides the Revan ones) are biased, but whatever.
You write theards as someone who claims to only want to show what happened but then while writing the Revan thread you showed Complete Biased for the Character , so I can only conclude that every thread you write now is going to have Bias and Opinion rather than just what is.
Revan is my third favorite Star Wars character. Actually, no. Darth Revan is.
Wow Revan is not even in my top 5 , I guess to like him more means to be Biased against him often.
Actually, had Order 66 not been initiated, the Republic would have won the war. And Plo Koon was one of the leading generals. He was a High General, which means that lesser Jedi would be under his command.
Ahh you see that is a WHAT IF , no WHAT HAPPENED . According to you the Golden Age is full of the best but Revan in a "LESSER TIME"(By you logic and post) Did with Lesser Jedi than Plo Koon could do with Better Jedi.
(Not to my Belief because Revan had alot of GREAT JEDI who worked with him and were his Generals)
Darth Revan killed Jedi Masters and Sithlords , Plo Koon fought Driods and none forceUsers. If Revan would have been in the Golden Age , he would have made Plo Koon poop his pants . Revan by Character alone was someone that was going to do something and the timeline would not have mattered. Its how he was writen and you can go all day blasting Drew for it but its no different than the many others who were writen like that. To say Revan would get Steam Rolled by anyone is a stretch .
Revan and Meetra are Battle Hardened Heros who fought and killed ForceUsers of the likes Plo Koon and most Jedi in the Golden Age never had to face . Beyond all Revan and Meetra would be just fine and hold their own against any Golden Age Jedi . The whole Golden Age thing is tired and old , skill can be just as great in the past and it is in the future . One can Argue that its not the skill that changed but the state of mind .
In the Golden Age Jedi know very little conflict till the Clone Wars , but in The Old Republic there is constant Conflict of the likes the Golden Age Jedi only read about .
Being a Battle Hardened Worrior Matters and should never be seen as a PUSH OVER OR SIMPLE FIGHT !


Of course Plo Koon would lose to Vader! Many of Plo Koon's most powerful abilities wouldn't really affect him. Force Lightning? Nope. Alter Environment? Maybe the removal of oxygen, but even then it is severely limited. Djem So? Plo Koon is arguably the second greatest practitioner of Djem So, Vader is the number 1.

Sooner of later writers and editors are going to move past these set standards that Lucas had that was made to make sure he could write his books and make his movies without conflicting stories . Eventually the Golden Age will see a Wash that will stop this neverending unrealistic terms of MOST POWERFUL SKILLED BLAH BLAHS of their time . Likely in Ep7 is when it will start.

I think the reason why so many people cannot get their heads around the Golden Age Rules is because in EU there is clearly more reason for better warriors Past the Clone Wars and Before the Golden Age .
Someone who is skilled in Real Combat is always going to be better than someone who just Practices it and never seen it.
Clearly Plo Koon comes into the War but he never lives past it and had he been from less Peaceful times he would without a doubt been able to know not to fully trust the Clone Troopers and most likely the Clone Wars would have been over with faster than it Started.
Sidious was in the best timeline for his plans and without a doubt why noone from his line attempted it before him . The Jedi were not Prepared for the Likes of Sidious or a full out War and that is Proven !
Give a Man a Mask and he'll become his true self

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.28.2012 , 03:32 PM | #404
Quote: Originally Posted by mefit View Post

Sooner of later writers and editors are going to move past these set standards that Lucas had that was made to make sure he could write his books and make his movies without conflicting stories . Eventually the Golden Age will see a Wash that will stop this neverending unrealistic terms of MOST POWERFUL SKILLED BLAH BLAHS of their time . Likely in Ep7 is when it will start.
I don't think I've mentioned Revan in any thread since the revisit. Assume what you wish.

Biased is a strong word and I'll admit to it. But I give Revan credit where credit is due.

You do know Yoda was training the Jedi to fight armies of Sith, yes? The Golden Age may not be battle hardened warriors, but they have a deep connection to the Force only rarely seen in the Old Republic times. And to say the Golden Age had no combat experience is simply false. Tensions with the Trade Federation, Yinchorri Uprising, Clone Wars, Stark Hyperspace War, as well as the standard missions that Jedi went on in service to the galaxy. And as I said before, they were training to fight Sith. They made radical changes to the Lightsaber Forms and meditated on the mysteries of The Force. Not only that, but the Jedi sparred against each other regularly to hone their skills. The may not be battle hardened, but when the battles came they were ready.

Oh, and Plo Koon defeated Ventress with ease. So he has faced Force users before.

Think what you wish, but the Golden Age Jedi Masters are in a league of their own.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

mefit's Avatar


mefit
12.28.2012 , 04:10 PM | #405
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I don't think I've mentioned Revan in any thread since the revisit. Assume what you wish.

Biased is a strong word and I'll admit to it. But I give Revan credit where credit is due.

You do know Yoda was training the Jedi to fight armies of Sith, yes? The Golden Age may not be battle hardened warriors, but they have a deep connection to the Force only rarely seen in the Old Republic times. And to say the Golden Age had no combat experience is simply false. Tensions with the Trade Federation, Yinchorri Uprising, Clone Wars, Stark Hyperspace War, as well as the standard missions that Jedi went on in service to the galaxy. And as I said before, they were training to fight Sith. They made radical changes to the Lightsaber Forms and meditated on the mysteries of The Force. Not only that, but the Jedi sparred against each other regularly to hone their skills. The may not be battle hardened, but when the battles came they were ready.

Oh, and Plo Koon defeated Ventress with ease. So he has faced Force users before.

Think what you wish, but the Golden Age Jedi Masters are in a league of their own.
Have you ever employed someone who you had to train and then got someone who knew what they were doing through Person experience? Totally different people and the knowing what you are doing first hand is always better than someone who just read about it.

I cannot believe you used Ventress is in all fights ends up running for her life . I would not count her as much and neither did Dooku and I will take the words of a Character of fiction over yours with this !

First Sith to enter the Golden Age and fight a Jedi was Mual and he killed one of those Trained to Fight Sith Jedi you are talking about . Maul much like Anakin lost to Obi-Wan due to EGO .
Golden Age Jedi are only given most powerful because Lucas wanted and rightfully so his Creations to be the best . But now that Lucas is out teh Picture we can go with Common Sense and Reality in how things work.

Golden Age Jedi might have been trained to be prepared for a Sith comeback but they failed in preventing it .
2 Sithlords pretty much bested the entire Republican and every Golden Age Jedi !
Give a Man a Mask and he'll become his true self

Scutum's Avatar


Scutum
12.28.2012 , 04:16 PM | #406
I feel like the only reason people can't wrap their heads around the fact that the Clone Wars era was the golden age of the Jedi is because there isn't really that much of a visible advancement in technology and the teachings of the Jedi between the Cold War of the mmo and the Clone Wars (I know that there is advancement, but it is difficult to see from a first glance).

It makes logical sense to assume that the Jedi Order that fought constantly against Sith would be the superior warriors, but they don't take into account the fact that the order of Yoda has the advantage of coming after those turbulent times. The order changed the combat styles so drastically because they were able to see what did and didn't work and change the training accordingly. It's only logical in that sense that the later orders would have more advanced combat techniques. Front-line experience is always better than only training, but their superior training means that when it is time for combat against a Sith they will be ready.

They would probably be better in the force as well, since they had the advantage of A) not being in constant war with the Sith (only occasional situations that had to be dealt with, not wars) and B) knowing that there were most likely Sith still out there and having to rely on meditation and the force to discover them. This, coupled with the same logic of advancement as above, would most likely mean that they would be better in this aspect as well.

Having worked out this logic (aided with the other responses I've read) has ironically helped me switch sides and say that Revan would probably lose to Vader (although I still say it would be a good fight).

All the talk about Revan in the clone wars era though has me intrigued. What would he be like in that time period? Would he still be destined to go to the dark side during the clone wars? How would he get along with Jedi like Anakin or Obi-Wan? Too bad we will never know
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"This is all very interesting, but why should I care?"
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Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.28.2012 , 04:21 PM | #407
Quote: Originally Posted by Scutum View Post
I feel like the only reason people can't wrap their heads around the fact that the Clone Wars era was the golden age of the Jedi is because there isn't really that much of a visible advancement in technology and the teachings of the Jedi between the Cold War of the mmo and the Clone Wars (I know that there is advancement, but it is difficult to see from a first glance).

It makes logical sense to assume that the Jedi Order that fought constantly against Sith would be the superior warriors, but they don't take into account the fact that the order of Yoda has the advantage of coming after those turbulent times. The order changed the combat styles so drastically because they were able to see what did and didn't work and change the training accordingly. It's only logical in that sense that the later orders would have more advanced combat techniques. Front-line experience is always better than only training, but their superior training means that when it is time for combat against a Sith they will be ready.

They would probably be better in the force as well, since they had the advantage of A) not being in constant war with the Sith (only occasional situations that had to be dealt with, not wars) and B) knowing that there were most likely Sith still out there and having to rely on meditation and the force to discover them. This, coupled with the same logic of advancement as above, would most likely mean that they would be better in this aspect as well.

Having worked out this logic (aided with the other responses I've read) has ironically helped me switch sides and say that Revan would probably lose to Vader (although I still say it would be a good fight).

All the talk about Revan in the clone wars era though has me intrigued. What would he be like in that time period? Would he still be destined to go to the dark side during the clone wars? How would he get along with Jedi like Anakin or Obi-Wan? Too bad we will never know
Finally some actual common sense. You are absolutely right.

Sure battle experience is important, but Yoda's Order was ready for the inevitable return of the Sith. Except that he was preparing for a New Sith Wars scenario, not Order 66.

As to Revan in the Clone Wars. That would be interesting. I have a feeling Anakin and Revan would get into a sort of rivalry, with Obi-Wan always sighing at them
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

mefit's Avatar


mefit
12.28.2012 , 04:34 PM | #408
Quote: Originally Posted by Scutum View Post
I feel like the only reason people can't wrap their heads around the fact that the Clone Wars era was the golden age of the Jedi is because there isn't really that much of a visible advancement in technology and the teachings of the Jedi between the Cold War of the mmo and the Clone Wars (I know that there is advancement, but it is difficult to see from a first glance).

It makes logical sense to assume that the Jedi Order that fought constantly against Sith would be the superior warriors, but they don't take into account the fact that the order of Yoda has the advantage of coming after those turbulent times. The order changed the combat styles so drastically because they were able to see what did and didn't work and change the training accordingly. It's only logical in that sense that the later orders would have more advanced combat techniques. Front-line experience is always better than only training, but their superior training means that when it is time for combat against a Sith they will be ready.

They would probably be better in the force as well, since they had the advantage of A) not being in constant war with the Sith (only occasional situations that had to be dealt with, not wars) and B) knowing that there were most likely Sith still out there and having to rely on meditation and the force to discover them. This, coupled with the same logic of advancement as above, would most likely mean that they would be better in this aspect as well.

Having worked out this logic (aided with the other responses I've read) has ironically helped me switch sides and say that Revan would probably lose to Vader (although I still say it would be a good fight).

All the talk about Revan in the clone wars era though has me intrigued. What would he be like in that time period? Would he still be destined to go to the dark side during the clone wars? How would he get along with Jedi like Anakin or Obi-Wan? Too bad we will never know

This is all I am saying , Revan would not be a easy fight . I said 2 pages ago he would lose and I am still saying it but ultimately we will never know because they are always "WHAT IF" Fights.

As for Revan being born in the Golden Age , he would likely follow the same Path . Learning from every Master he could , when the Clone Wars started he would be quick to get involved , He would eventually be changed , Palpatine would have noticed him like all the Jedi he tempted , Revan would have fallen , and lastly Anakin and Obi-Wan would likely killed Revan .
How Revan Falls would likely be on the lines of Palpatine showing him the same weaknesses of the Jedi as he pointed out to Anakin . I do not think in the end he would been able to fend off Anakin and Obi-Wan . Being Revan was around Anakin's Age in EP3 when he went to War , it would be likely they would know one another but it would be pure Opinion to say they would like eachother above what Jedi normally think of one another.

I almost want to goes as Far to Say Dooku would use Revan as the Apprentice he was looking for or a warmer for the spot . Might go as far to say Dooku would likely been the one to make Revan Fall being Revan respected skill and power , both Dooku by lore and story had. Who better to train from than the man who at one point was considered the possible Chosen One.

Its to my belief that Anakin and Obi-Wan were a perfect duo and would endup killing or capturing Revan no matter the path.
Give a Man a Mask and he'll become his true self

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
12.29.2012 , 02:19 AM | #409
I accept that the Jedi of the Clone War era are considered more powerful on the whole when it comes to canon, but it has always kind of annoyed me, and I can see why it bothers some people. Let me try to explain.

For all their strong connections to the Force, the Jedi of that era were stupid. Like drooling caveman stupid. I know Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever, blah, blah. But the writing in the prequels just painted the Jedi as morons. I can understand that Sidious could hide his identity, but so many of the decisions the council made, and Yoda in particular, seem boneheaded on the surface with no force visions required. Assigning a clearly hotheaded and troubled Anakin to a clearly manipulative and power-hungry politician was bound to lead to bad things. It doesn't take a Jedi Grand Master to see that. It doesn't take a Jedi Grand Master to see that Anakin was clearly too emotional and leaning towards the dark side. Yet all they do is give him little warnings about fear leading to the dark side. They do nothing to stop him from going down that path. They don't send him somewhere for additional training on controlling his emotions or take him off the front lines to go meditate for a few years.

The other problem is, all of these wonderful powers these guys have are only in the EU. We never see them do pretty much anything other than swing lightsabers in the movies. In general, the EU overpowers everything. Games, comics, books, whatever. In the movies, Jedi use lightsabers and maybe a little telekinesis. Sith use lightsabers and lightning. So all of these powers just seem a bit excessive. Why don't they ever use them in the movies? If they are so powerful, why do they just use lightsabers and not force-mega-crush everything?

Like I said, I accept that this stuff is canon. But I am still bothered by the way the story was written. It's hard to view the Clone War era Jedi as that great when they come off like oblivious tools in the movies.

khayyinx's Avatar


khayyinx
12.29.2012 , 11:05 AM | #410
mefit, i agree with everything you posted. I think there is no way to say for sure that one character can kill the other. It all depends, as we see in ROTJ, A weak Vader killed the GOD Darth Sidious. In Phantom Menace, Darth Maul killed Qui-gon. I bet that everyone in this forum would say that quigon would "wipe the floor" with maul, but that didn't happened.

So about Revan vs Vader i think they are at the same power level, but i think Revan is smarter and brighter, which could give him some advantage, depending on the scenario.

All those Revan haters are biased and ignore all of Revan's achievements or consider them as ridiculous. Aurbere even said that Revan defeating Nyriss wasn't anything important, because she used all her force power in a single attack and all he did was redirect to her. Well, this IS a big deal, other jedi (exile, Scourge?) in his place would be burned in one second.

I also agree with the golden era jedi vs old republic jedi. George Lucas just want to make his creations the best, because logic says that a jedi living in a time of war and combat would be a better warrior.