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What's the secret behind Madness tree?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
What's the secret behind Madness tree?

NogueiraA's Avatar


NogueiraA
12.26.2012 , 11:20 AM | #1
I'm a new assassin playing full deception for PVP, full WH BiS and I realized Madness is way better for PVE.
I have a mara as a main, I use annihilation because of the sustain damage.
It's hard to pay attention on all procs in your buffs bar, sometimes you don't see a proc, so I was paying attention on my char animations and I saw some efects when the proc happens.

What did you guys do to manage the maul and crushing darkness procs?
Do You prefer to look at your buffs bar or your char animation?

The cooldown of Death Field, Discharge and Creeping Terror with some practice you can manage to always keep up your dots without looking at your skills bar. The buff from shock is very important to keep up, to help your maul and Thrash.

Madness is the hardest build I ever played, I have 7 50's, neither Anni mara's has a bunch of "rules" to follow. I'm not complaining, I just want to see some thoughts.

MantorokTwelve's Avatar


MantorokTwelve
12.26.2012 , 03:09 PM | #2
I think madnessin is too high maintenance for not enough reward. You have to watch your target's buff bar for death marks, discharge, and creeping terror (if you go full madness), and you have to watch your own bar to keep unearthed knowledge up, and watch for exploit weakness and raze. I don't think there's enough of a reward in it, deception has become much more viable in the last couple patches and the rotation is much simpler.

Another thing that turned me off to madnessin is I leveled a sorc. Madness is MUCH simpler for them; keep affliction (discharge) and death field up, spam force lightning, use crushing darkness/lightning strike when they proc (they proc just from FL). Not to mention madness sorcs can go hybrid and get some great synergy from the lightning tree. There's not really much to be gained out of darkness or deception for a madnessin past the first tier. Plus of course the madness sorc gets to sit at 30 meters all the time.

Stick to deception. It's a lot less crap to watch, and the only decent DPSsins I've seen are deception. Volt slash, volt slash, shock, discharge on cooldown, maul on proc, blackout at the end of a force heavy rotation or as a cooldown when you might be taking heavy damage (force cloak as well). And of course, always begin your combat in stealth mode for the free dark embrace.

Trenhob's Avatar


Trenhob
12.26.2012 , 04:21 PM | #3
I really like the way every ability you have plays off of each other as Madness, and you do get a feel for the timing if you play it enough. I just glance at the timers on the bars once in a while because Exploit Weakness in particular has a barely visible animation.

I took a look at Tor Assistant a while back, and it provides a way to set audio cues for when your buffs and debuffs expire. You may find it helpful.

Another option you can try (if you haven't yet) is Shockless, where you don't take any talents buffing Shock and take it out of your rotation entirely. You don't have the spike of force shortage that can throw your timing off and it's in the running DPS-wise with the shock build, depending on the fight.

If you still don't like it, make the playstyle you like work. Deception is less awful than it was.
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Talon_Starfire's Avatar


Talon_Starfire
12.26.2012 , 04:27 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by MantorokTwelve View Post
Stick to deception. It's a lot less crap to watch, and the only decent DPSsins I've seen are deception. Volt slash, volt slash, shock, discharge on cooldown, maul on proc, blackout at the end of a force heavy rotation or as a cooldown when you might be taking heavy damage (force cloak as well). And of course, always begin your combat in stealth mode for the free dark embrace.
Isn't the Thrash from Madness better than Voltaic Slash?
Thanks
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Darth_Precursor's Avatar


Darth_Precursor
12.26.2012 , 04:32 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Trenhob View Post
I took a look at Tor Assistant a while back, and it provides a way to set audio cues for when your buffs and debuffs expire. You may find it helpful.
Wow, thanks for posting this! It looks extremely helpful and i'll be using it soon.
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MantorokTwelve's Avatar


MantorokTwelve
12.26.2012 , 09:35 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Talon_Starfire View Post
Isn't the Thrash from Madness better than Voltaic Slash?
Thanks
I honestly don't know, but I would think VS is stronger. Madness thrash gets a surge buff from claws of decay and base damage buff from unearthed knowledge (if you keep it up), other than that the buffs are shared (exploitive strikes, thrashing blades). I'd think a critical hit on thrash would beat out a crit VS, but VS is more consistent, and actually leads to useful procs to buff shock and discharge. Thrash in madness is just filler. Strong filler, but filler nonetheless.

And that TOR assistant looks incredibly useful, especially for when you have to track deathmarks between multiple madness inquisitors.

TyrellJonez's Avatar


TyrellJonez
12.27.2012 , 10:39 AM | #7
I run the Arika(sp?) build My thrash hits for 1k per hit without critting. I haven't played deception since i leveled as it back when you could use adrenals and relics in WZs (oh how i miss the 700 power boosts).

Madness is difficult to work because of all the things you have to manage but if you can, it pays off. atleast to me. Its similar to Operative concealment to me, If your not CC'ed you can control the fight and go 2v1. If not, well then your gunna eat dirt.

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Xinika's Avatar


Xinika
12.27.2012 , 01:50 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by NogueiraA View Post
I'm a new assassin playing full deception for PVP, full WH BiS and I realized Madness is way better for PVE.
I have a mara as a main, I use annihilation because of the sustain damage.
It's hard to pay attention on all procs in your buffs bar, sometimes you don't see a proc, so I was paying attention on my char animations and I saw some efects when the proc happens.

What did you guys do to manage the maul and crushing darkness procs?
Do You prefer to look at your buffs bar or your char animation?

The cooldown of Death Field, Discharge and Creeping Terror with some practice you can manage to always keep up your dots without looking at your skills bar. The buff from shock is very important to keep up, to help your maul and Thrash.

Madness is the hardest build I ever played, I have 7 50's, neither Anni mara's has a bunch of "rules" to follow. I'm not complaining, I just want to see some thoughts.
Listen, for PvP there's no secret. It's a very mediocre spec with little pay off for its worth. Unless, of course, you enjoy tab dotting and bolstering your ego across the scoreboards over useless damage numbers - go for it. As far as killing and control power goes, there are other specs that outclass it in every way imaginable.

Quote:
What did you guys do to manage the maul and crushing darkness procs?
Do You prefer to look at your buffs bar or your char animation?
I personally look at the buffs and my character lighting up for the proc.

Quote:
Madness is the hardest build I ever played, I have 7 50's, neither Anni mara's has a bunch of "rules" to follow. I'm not complaining, I just want to see some thoughts.
It has a steep learning curve, but as I said before - barely worth it. It's a lot different vs a Watchman sent, who, by all means: pays off quite well for its ramp up.
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PlagaNerezza's Avatar


PlagaNerezza
12.27.2012 , 03:20 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Xinika View Post
Listen, for PvP there's no secret. It's a very mediocre spec with little pay off for its worth. Unless, of course, you enjoy tab dotting and bolstering your ego across the scoreboards over useless damage numbers - go for it. As far as killing and control power goes, there are other specs that outclass it in every way imaginable.


I personally look at the buffs and my character lighting up for the proc.


It has a steep learning curve, but as I said before - barely worth it. It's a lot different vs a Watchman sent, who, by all means: pays off quite well for its ramp up.
Not to disagree to much, but its not terrible for pvp. I find that creeping terror is solid addition. I think its very good against LOS healers like operatives to keep pressure on them. I find that DoT's have an added benefit to pvp and that is making the healer work harder. Especially now that almost everyone runs a burst pvp spec its not bad to have a DoT specced player with solid burst on a team. I like it with stealth. I find it helps against teams with skilled players (healers) that are effective. First is they see damage ticking. They may be not healing the right target once your burst players start spiking someone. Meanwhile they have to switch to the guy getting targeted and your 5k dots are still ticking or need to be cleansed.

Against these massive bubble spec teams its always good to try and pop bubbles at range. Madness is good right now if only because it changes your engagement style to open ranged dot, then close to kill. It has 2 long range attacks that hit for internal damage. It gets a fairly good amount of healing going if you dot up the enemy team.

It's weakness is the softness. Your not going to want to go head on against other burst players. You want to harass and flee. Its more of a dps support class. While I agree on its burst lacking the power running it as an assassin can actually produce more wins in pugs than people realize.

Its ok for huttball. Instant Whirlwind and creeping terror are good skills there to go along with improved force speed and more CC breakers per match with advoidance from deception.

One of my favorite tactics. Sitting by the friendly back row. Dot up some people. Watch your melee dps close. Creeping terror the target. Most healers are seeing smash or ravage coming and they are using that aoe cc. One you see that you charge in. Proc up your melee. Slow them. It can really help to kill those healers faster. Meanwhile that off healer is busy working your dot damage and other damage coming at the group.

What doesn't work is a team of all DoT spec players. Mixing in Madness with smash is very nice. IMO.
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Cowflab's Avatar


Cowflab
12.28.2012 , 10:26 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by PlagaNerezza View Post
Not to disagree to much, but its not terrible for pvp. I find that creeping terror is solid addition. I think its very good against LOS healers like operatives to keep pressure on them. I find that DoT's have an added benefit to pvp and that is making the healer work harder. Especially now that almost everyone runs a burst pvp spec its not bad to have a DoT specced player with solid burst on a team. I like it with stealth. I find it helps against teams with skilled players (healers) that are effective. First is they see damage ticking. They may be not healing the right target once your burst players start spiking someone. Meanwhile they have to switch to the guy getting targeted and your 5k dots are still ticking or need to be cleansed.

Against these massive bubble spec teams its always good to try and pop bubbles at range. Madness is good right now if only because it changes your engagement style to open ranged dot, then close to kill. It has 2 long range attacks that hit for internal damage. It gets a fairly good amount of healing going if you dot up the enemy team.

It's weakness is the softness. Your not going to want to go head on against other burst players. You want to harass and flee. Its more of a dps support class. While I agree on its burst lacking the power running it as an assassin can actually produce more wins in pugs than people realize.

Its ok for huttball. Instant Whirlwind and creeping terror are good skills there to go along with improved force speed and more CC breakers per match with advoidance from deception.

One of my favorite tactics. Sitting by the friendly back row. Dot up some people. Watch your melee dps close. Creeping terror the target. Most healers are seeing smash or ravage coming and they are using that aoe cc. One you see that you charge in. Proc up your melee. Slow them. It can really help to kill those healers faster. Meanwhile that off healer is busy working your dot damage and other damage coming at the group.

What doesn't work is a team of all DoT spec players. Mixing in Madness with smash is very nice. IMO.
So, in other words, you run around in a squishy spec trying your damnedest to kite with a spec that has one ability with more than a 10m range, no reduced cooldown on your slow, or no reduced cooldown on your gap closer/maker hoping people don't spot you? I'm all for people playing the spec they enjoy, and am in no way saying that you can't succeed as a Madsin. However, you'd be much better off choosing a 2/31/8 or 0/27/14 spec.

Why fiddle around with DoTs and trying to kite in burst/zerg fests when you can effectively get in, dispatch a soft target in a few globals, exit, CC a support class, and then re-enter to dispatch another soft target while having survivability on par with a Darksin?

Doesn't make much sense to me, but to each their own. I will tell you this. When I spot a sin or shadow in balance/madness charge, I make it a point to single them out for the rest of the match because I know I can burst them faster than they can damage me, control them better and more often than they can control me, and shroud their DoTs---->Medpack and roast them even if they get the jump(which they never do).