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Why aren't all the Operations in the group finder

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Why aren't all the Operations in the group finder
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Sithcreep's Avatar


Sithcreep
09.26.2012 , 08:02 AM | #21
People that disagree with me stating gear check, wont save you from unskilled ppl miss one important thing: the whole discussion is about getting the functionality of a pug on par with traditional party gathering like shouting in gc. Unless you do a guild run where you know all the players and their skill you will always have to rely on good gear as a minimum requirement. There is no way to measure the skill level of a random player properly, the only way would be to add an accomplishment history, so you can see whether that individual has actually beaten that specific fp, ops or not. However doing so would encourage ppl to exclusively team up with other experienced players. And that unlocking idea is pointless, since having for instance beat EC on sm, doesnt mean you can beat it in hm too.





Quote: Originally Posted by ToremOde View Post
I agree with all your points, save for this one:



That assumption is wrong.
Fair enough. Then ask everyone in a key role to download and install either client, no big deal either. Its done in 5 mins.

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
09.26.2012 , 10:01 AM | #22
Gear checks just do not work.

Adding item level requirement was a total failure in WoW, and it would probably be a big failure in this game.

First of all if you only had a gear check that only checks the rating in your gear (similar to WoW's item level check) you would get a huge increase in stupid stuff like Troopers running around in wearing Strength gear (because it has higher item levels) and other such cases of people wearing gear that is completely useless to their class. I already see these kinds of people sometimes, and really don't want to have even more of them in my groups.

Second thing even if you had also checkups that make sure that the person has gear with the correct primary stat for his class, it would not be enough to filter out such things as:
-Tanks wearing dps gear
-DPS wearing tank gear
-PvP gear in PvE ops
and so on.

Now even if they created some kind of a smart gear check that would filter out all of the above, there is still one major flaw that just makes it impossible to get a good gear automatic check system in place.
THERE ARE MANY MANY EXAMPLES IN THIS GAME WHERE A PIECE OF GEAR WITH A LOWER RATING IS BETTER THAN ONE WITH HIGHER RATING!!!
No matter how advanced gear checkups they made with automatic group making tools, they would never be able to take all of this fully into account. There were some examples of this problem even in WoW, although only a few, but in this game it is a huge problem with literally hundreds of badly itemized pieces where even the unaltered version of the lower tier gear is better.
Not to mention that having your gear properly optimized by swapping some parts in it, makes up for even bigger difference.

mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
09.26.2012 , 10:40 AM | #23
I have to agree with you Eternalnight. Now I wouldn’t mind equipment check, one that checked level and proper gear, but like you wrote and system would not solve the problem. Nothing can measure ability and knowledge, but at least wearing the right gear tells me the person is trying and at least has a little understanding of the class, but beyond that it shows nothing.

ToremOde's Avatar


ToremOde
09.26.2012 , 11:04 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Sithcreep View Post
. And that unlocking idea is pointless, since having for instance beat EC on sm, doesnt mean you can beat it in hm to.

Fair enough. Then ask everyone in a key role to download and install either client, no big deal either. Its done in 5 mins.
Maybe people don't want to download new programs to clutter up their desktops? Especially since a lot of people use different programs for communication. If you can't make yourself clear enough in Groupchat then perhaps you shouldn't raid.

And the unlocking idea is the only viable option tbh. As stated, gear checks only check gear not skill. Having to beat other ops and FP's first at least proves the player has taken part in and completed a raid, thus showing a degree of skill. It's a better bet than gear checks anyways.

shadowsight's Avatar


shadowsight
09.30.2012 , 09:53 AM | #25
We have Tier 1 and Tier 2 Hard Mode Flashpoints, why can't we have Tier 1 and Tier 2 Story Mode Operations?

I don't queue for Lost Island with a brand new lvl 50, and if I did I could hardly complain if the group wanted to kick me for being under geared. Likewise if you did a group finder for a Tier 2 Op (Explosive Conflict or Terror From Beyond) and were under geared, you could expect to get kicked.

Bioware could put some explanatory text in Group Finder explaining the difference between the 2 levels of Operations similar to what they have for the 2 levels of Flashpoints, and include the recommended minimum gearing in the description. That way people can queue at their own risk.

Tannadar's Avatar


Tannadar
12.26.2012 , 07:22 AM | #26
I dont see why having either a gear check for SM EC and Terror from beyond isnt possible and a 2nd tier for group finder pugs would fail. Wow does it and yes most groups fail at the start of new content but with in 1 - 2 weeks everyone knows the tactics (and yes bosses have been nerfed for group finder raids). But saying that a. the group finder groups automatically fail, you suggest that everyone who isn't in a guild is not a good player/situationally aware/not good at their class (rotations and basic theory crafting). not only posters on this forum say, but its seems bioware feels this way too (I may have read out of context but its how it comes across to me) and b. your progression stops at KP. So what do i do now? dailies? log on once a day do the daily HMFP and slowly grind away to get Black hole gear in a possible chance i might find someone making a pug group for tier 2 OPS? (which is what ive been doing so far) Its disheartening as I really liked the concept of swtor and i really like the game. but im bored, I would love to see the Tier 2 ops on the group finder and i think players would have a better experience than expected, because at the end of the day everyone wants to experience end game and will make the effort to be part of it.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
12.26.2012 , 01:59 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Tannadar View Post
I dont see why having either a gear check for SM EC and Terror from beyond isnt possible and a 2nd tier for group finder pugs would fail. Wow does it and yes most groups fail at the start of new content but with in 1 - 2 weeks everyone knows the tactics (and yes bosses have been nerfed for group finder raids). But saying that a. the group finder groups automatically fail, you suggest that everyone who isn't in a guild is not a good player/situationally aware/not good at their class (rotations and basic theory crafting). not only posters on this forum say, but its seems bioware feels this way too (I may have read out of context but its how it comes across to me) and b. your progression stops at KP. So what do i do now? dailies? log on once a day do the daily HMFP and slowly grind away to get Black hole gear in a possible chance i might find someone making a pug group for tier 2 OPS? (which is what ive been doing so far) Its disheartening as I really liked the concept of swtor and i really like the game. but im bored, I would love to see the Tier 2 ops on the group finder and i think players would have a better experience than expected, because at the end of the day everyone wants to experience end game and will make the effort to be part of it.
Here's what I suggest you do:

1. When you run pug HM FPs and get grouped with really good players, add them to your friends list.
2. When they're online, try to pull them together for operations.

EC and TfB can be tricky to master and are heavily execution-based. Most people solve this by getting in a guild of like-minded people. If this is something you're not interested in, try the above. It will at least give you a starting point of people who are likely to do well in the ops.

/2cents

TheMarmalade's Avatar


TheMarmalade
12.27.2012 , 12:18 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Here's what I suggest you do:

1. When you run pug HM FPs and get grouped with really good players, add them to your friends list.
2. When they're online, try to pull them together for operations.

EC and TfB can be tricky to master and are heavily execution-based. Most people solve this by getting in a guild of like-minded people. If this is something you're not interested in, try the above. It will at least give you a starting point of people who are likely to do well in the ops.

/2cents
To add on to this once you have a good friends list of capable players create your own private pugging channel. Have anyone that you invite to the channel invite good capable players to the channel. Pretty soon you will have a solid pugging channel. Capable of building a solid pugged ops group in no time.

Nipanther's Avatar


Nipanther
12.28.2012 , 08:59 AM | #29
One easy way to add EC SM and TFB SM to the list is making a requirement that the person has completed it at least 2-3 times without group finder. This would mean that they have had success and have some idea how it works. This would allow a person to unlock the SM Op. Until the person has completed it enough it cannot be unlocked for GF SM Op Tier 2
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Eurynamous's Avatar


Eurynamous
12.28.2012 , 03:55 PM | #30
Having people complete the content does not mean they're competent and versed in the said content. They could have been carried several times in alt gearing runs.

Inspecting players to check gear and then kicking them doesn't work, because people are there to get gear. That also leads to general chat nonsense, blacklisting and bad blood in the community.

I like the system how it is. Get into a guild or wait for guilds to be pugging on an off night. We have a large friends list from people we have pugged in and performed well. Sometimes we just recruit them and make them into raiders. Hell, we have multiple raid groups now.

Not everything needs to be on group finder.
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