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Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?
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SirGladiator's Avatar


SirGladiator
12.25.2012 , 05:46 AM | #4421
Quote: Originally Posted by Kodyack View Post
One thing that worries me about new characters is that they might be placed at the end of the story altogether. Which would make any romance from said companion to be rushed and inauthentic. + It means that SGR's would always be at the back of the game while regular romance is available earlier on.
I agree completely with that. The absurdity of this whole issue is truly astounding, for a number of reasons. I imagine most, if not all, folks here know about Skyrim, and how not only can you romance anybody you like, you can marry anybody you like. This was a major, and obviously very positive, departure from all the other games in the series, which to the best of my knowledge didn't have any LIs at all, they were just traditional 'story and combat' games. When the head of the game was asked about the issue, he was asked why he wasn't making a big deal out of the fact that you can romance, and marry, anyone, and his answer was simple. They weren't making a big deal out of it because it isn't a big deal. That's exactly right, as it should be. Of course in all likelihood, the main reason they did things the way they did them wasn't for any other reason than maximizing fun while minimizing work. Its literally easier to make the romances available to everyone than to say 'this romance is for player A, this one for player B, this one for player A, this one for player B' etc. Thats why its so insane that SWTOR has done things the way they've done them, they've literally worked harder to keep us from enjoying the romances than they would have if they'd simply let us enjoy them all along.

Thats why I don't tend to say things like 'give us SGRs' or anything like that, I say things like 'stop disabling the romances', because we're not asking for anything special, we're not asking for them to go out of their way and create special all new characters, or separate romance paths, or anything like that (of course we'd enjoy new characters to romance 'in addition to' the existing ones, we just dont want them 'instead of' the existing ones), we simply want them to stop actively preventing us from enjoying the romances that are already in the game. As I mentioned before, when they added the 'legacy' system they could've actively prevented two characters of the same gender from being regarded as a 'spouse', but they didnt, because to do that would've been insane, it would've meant more work for the team creating it, and less fun options for the players. Its the same deal with the romances, it took more work to keep us from playing them than it would have to allow us to play all of them. Its just crazy stuff, its why almost nobody does that sort of thing anymore. The key for me is, we were never asking them to do 'more', we were actually asking them to do 'less' (although you could say that at this point we're asking them to do a little bit more, just enough to undo what they did in keeping us from playing the romances in the first place) . I do predict, based on the legacy system, that any characters they add in the future that are LIs will be made available for all, whether they'll be doing it as a response to our asking or simply because they have fewer workers now and can less afford to waste time keeping us from playing the romances is anybody's guess, But this whole issue, at its core, is one of their own making, not because they 'didnt have enough time to implement it', but because they took MORE time to prevent it than they would have taken to allow it. Hopefully they, as other gaming companies already have, learned now that wasting time and energy preventing us from enjoying the various romances is just a really REALLY dumb idea, it doesn't really make anybody happy and it makes quite a lot of folks unhappy, and shouldn't be done anymore.

On a much more positive note, Merry Christmas everybody!

Quething's Avatar


Quething
12.25.2012 , 06:23 AM | #4422
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
I believe one of the comments on Joshigun's article about gender representation covered just that. Having read a recent opinion column about a woman enjoying Bioware's inclusive stance and representation of women in their games (specifically the Mass Effect series and Commander Shepard), it truly does make me wonder how the studio which wrote, created and maintains this game can dare to use the 'Bioware' name, when they clearly do not adhere to even its basic principles.
SWTOR is actually significantly better than Mass Effect on the gender front. ME1 was pretty good if you ignore Liara (Ash and Kaidan are all kinds of stereotype-defying) but ME2 got fratboy on us and ME3 was even worse. Imagine if you couldn't tell Doc or Theran to shut up and stop being skeezy, because the game itself was quite convinced that they were hilarious and awesome and not, you know, frakking skeezy and so didn't even think to give you the option.

SWTOR has a real numbers disparity, and the whole "every female companion is a love interest" thing is certainly problematic. (And let's not even start on the clothing issue; where's my slave outfit for Corso, BioWare?) But the most bad@ss character in the entire setting is Satele Shan, who is allowed to be more dangerous than Malgus and smoother than the male Smuggler. Class storylines have the PCs answerable to people like Garza and Zash, solid characters treated with complete respect by the narrative with no reliance on Girl Character cliches (Garza in particular is incredible - she's hypercompetent with incredible authority including over the PC, she's complex and possessed of her own motives and priorities, and she's old and fat. That she is allowed to be any of these things as a woman is already huge. That she can be all of them at once is beyond amazing). This is female-friendly writing on a level Mass Effect can't even dream of anymore. (Although on the whole I still think the Dragon Age franchise is doing better as of DA2; they have the writing and the numbers, and a more equal-opportunity art team.)

Which honestly just makes it all the sadder that they're being so backwards on the queer front. If you're going to be a dudebro game for a dudebro audience fine, go ahead and go all the way. Nobody's seriously going "why are women treated so badly in the Witcher" because it's the Witcher, what do you expect? But the SWTOR guys, with their writing that treats women like actual human beings most of the time, appear to be aiming at a different audience. Well, here we are, so where's the rest of the not-for-dudebro-jack@sses package?

Aebrynis's Avatar


Aebrynis
12.25.2012 , 07:32 AM | #4423
Quote: Originally Posted by Quething View Post
(Garza in particular is incredible - she's hypercompetent with incredible authority including over the PC, she's complex and possessed of her own motives and priorities, and she's old and fat. That she is allowed to be any of these things as a woman is already huge. That she can be all of them at once is beyond amazing).
Garza is obviously a Body Type 4, and that is far from being fat. 3 would have been appropriate as well. 2 is a bit on the thin side, especially for a soldier, and a 1 is positively anorexic and unhealthy-looking. I think Garza was given the most appropriate type available, all things considered, though that's a body shape most gals can only dream of having at that age. YMMV.

Back on topic...I am no programmer, but wouldn't it be fairly simple to have some sort of toggle switch at character creation (or in-game), allowing you to choose which dialogues you can access? 1=OGRA, 2=SGRA, 3=Both.

I am of the opinion that many of the minor bumps in the dialogue would be acceptable were this option available - it would certainly be one of the least expensive options, again, in my opinion.

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
12.25.2012 , 07:41 AM | #4424
Quote: Originally Posted by Quething View Post
SWTOR is actually significantly better than Mass Effect on the gender front. ME1 was pretty good if you ignore Liara (Ash and Kaidan are all kinds of stereotype-defying) but ME2 got fratboy on us and ME3 was even worse. Imagine if you couldn't tell Doc or Theran to shut up and stop being skeezy, because the game itself was quite convinced that they were hilarious and awesome and not, you know, frakking skeezy and so didn't even think to give you the option.

SWTOR has a real numbers disparity, and the whole "every female companion is a love interest" thing is certainly problematic. (And let's not even start on the clothing issue; where's my slave outfit for Corso, BioWare?) But the most bad@ss character in the entire setting is Satele Shan, who is allowed to be more dangerous than Malgus and smoother than the male Smuggler. Class storylines have the PCs answerable to people like Garza and Zash, solid characters treated with complete respect by the narrative with no reliance on Girl Character cliches (Garza in particular is incredible - she's hypercompetent with incredible authority including over the PC, she's complex and possessed of her own motives and priorities, and she's old and fat. That she is allowed to be any of these things as a woman is already huge. That she can be all of them at once is beyond amazing). This is female-friendly writing on a level Mass Effect can't even dream of anymore. (Although on the whole I still think the Dragon Age franchise is doing better as of DA2; they have the writing and the numbers, and a more equal-opportunity art team.)

Which honestly just makes it all the sadder that they're being so backwards on the queer front. If you're going to be a dudebro game for a dudebro audience fine, go ahead and go all the way. Nobody's seriously going "why are women treated so badly in the Witcher" because it's the Witcher, what do you expect? But the SWTOR guys, with their writing that treats women like actual human beings most of the time, appear to be aiming at a different audience. Well, here we are, so where's the rest of the not-for-dudebro-jack@sses package?
I'll bow to your knowledge - I've not actually played Mass Effect, so that was an interesting read.

I was writing that post a little late last night, so it's now obvious I forgot the sexism thread that's already floating around in Story and Lore. I've encountered very few... problematic representations of women in this game, though that's probably because almost all of my characters are female. Like you said, this stance of treating women like real people only makes the denial and erasure of queer people even more stark.

natashina's Avatar


natashina
12.25.2012 , 09:37 AM | #4425
**pops in**


Merry Christmas!!

I'll talk to you guys in the next day or so. I

Stay warm my northern hemisphere friends. It's 4(F)-16(C)/ degrees out here with snow on the ground.

Got the DA Ultimate Edition pack (Orgin, Awakening and all 9 of the DLC packs for Christmas. I'm having too much fun.

And for my buddies in Oz., keep cool and not too hot. Stay hydrated, not thirsty my friends.

stuffystuffs's Avatar


stuffystuffs
12.25.2012 , 11:40 AM | #4426
Merry Xmas to you too, natashina

Quote: Originally Posted by SirGladiator View Post
Thats why I don't tend to say things like 'give us SGRs' or anything like that, I say things like 'stop disabling the romances', because we're not asking for anything special, we're not asking for them to go out of their way and create special all new characters, or separate romance paths, or anything like that (of course we'd enjoy new characters to romance 'in addition to' the existing ones, we just dont want them 'instead of' the existing ones), we simply want them to stop actively preventing us from enjoying the romances that are already in the game.
Yeah, that's how I think of it.

There are romance in the game and PCs can pursue them if they want. Nothing prevents it...oh wait, gender does and that's the only thing.

Quote: Originally Posted by SirGladiator View Post
As I mentioned before, when they added the 'legacy' system they could've actively prevented two characters of the same gender from being regarded as a 'spouse', but they didnt, because to do that would've been insane, it would've meant more work for the team creating it, and less fun options for the players. Its the same deal with the romances, it took more work to keep us from playing them than it would have to allow us to play all of them.
I'm not sure it would take more work to add in the gender checks than allow the romances to be open to both genders. With the latter, additional VA would need recorded plus some dialog re-written. I'd say it's a bit less work to add in a few checks in code. Regardless, it's not that much more work to make them accessible to both genders (as David Gaider points out in one of his comments posted a few pages back) and it's surely less work than adding new SGRA companions from scratch.

So, looking at it this way, lots of work has to be done to add romances to the game in the first place. A little bit more work has to be done to add in gender checks. A little bit more work than that has to be done if you want to make them open to both genders. I just wonder, if your putting the effort into adding romances in the first place, why not go a little bit further and make them accessible to more players?
Node guarder

Craeden's Avatar


Craeden
12.25.2012 , 11:48 AM | #4427
Considering the fact that I've neither the time nor the inclination to scan throughout this entire thread:

So will they be implemented, or is this more **** and bull that Bioware wants to feed us? If not, when will it be?

stuffystuffs's Avatar


stuffystuffs
12.25.2012 , 12:00 PM | #4428
Quote: Originally Posted by Craeden View Post
So will they be implemented, or is this more **** and bull that Bioware wants to feed us? If not, when will it be?
We have no idea.
Node guarder

Craeden's Avatar


Craeden
12.25.2012 , 12:12 PM | #4429
Quote: Originally Posted by stuffystuffs View Post
We have no idea.
*Laughs*

And you know what? Neither does Bioware, I'm VERY certain.

Anglvamp's Avatar


Anglvamp
12.25.2012 , 12:41 PM | #4430
Haven't done any of the romance options yet, I wonder how much of it would need to be rewritten and voiced. The rest of the game has been terribly generic, lost track of how many times I've been m'lorded and sir'ed. Would they really have to do that much?

^.^