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SWTOR should've been a RPG


Revanchis's Avatar


Revanchis
12.23.2012 , 05:26 PM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by FeelFlow View Post
Agree with your analysis it'll be MMO content all the way now with story content only because the rest of the game has it i.e. releasing content without story would seem weird.

I don't think we'll ever see any more class stories - for the reasons mentioned - and even then, I'm betting that the new content will have mostly alien language (ie subtitled) dialogue with the 'stock responses' from us.

I wish in a parallel universe we had got to see the KOTOR 3 RPG though. Oh well!
It's a sad truth, I suppose. Perhaps in another 5 years or so we may see a KotOR 3, or maybe in a decade. I just hope they do add some more class stories for any expansions they announce. I'm sure a lot of the KotOR crowd will come back for any expansion packs. It'll be like the old RPG expansion packs, like Awakenings or Throne of Baal.

FeelFlow's Avatar


FeelFlow
12.23.2012 , 05:52 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by Revanchis View Post
It's a sad truth, I suppose. Perhaps in another 5 years or so we may see a KotOR 3, or maybe in a decade. I just hope they do add some more class stories for any expansions they announce. I'm sure a lot of the KotOR crowd will come back for any expansion packs. It'll be like the old RPG expansion packs, like Awakenings or Throne of Baal.
I'm optomistic in that I think that tablets will be the sort of gaming device where RPGs will be more at home. And there is predicted to be quite a lot of these sold.

As for the old Republic as imagined by BW. Well this is the last we will here from them (this game) I should think. So let's enjoy what we have. Whilst imagining what KOTOR 3 could've been, of course!

Revanchis's Avatar


Revanchis
12.24.2012 , 10:00 AM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by FeelFlow View Post
I'm optomistic in that I think that tablets will be the sort of gaming device where RPGs will be more at home. And there is predicted to be quite a lot of these sold.

As for the old Republic as imagined by BW. Well this is the last we will here from them (this game) I should think. So let's enjoy what we have. Whilst imagining what KOTOR 3 could've been, of course!
I have no doubt that RPGs will continue to stand strong on the PC and consoles. I don't think tablets are well suited to RPGs. Obsidian is actually currently in the process of making an RPG that harkens back to the Infinity Engine era of PC-RPGs. Once I'm done with this game I probably won't buy anything further from Bioware Austin, they are not RPG developers. I'm still looking forward to Bioware Edmonton's next game.

Inzuher's Avatar


Inzuher
12.24.2012 , 10:09 AM | #74
"I am that which grips the heart in fright, hearkens night, and silences the light.".

DarthNordom's Avatar


DarthNordom
12.24.2012 , 11:07 AM | #75
Can people just stop talking about what swtor should have been and not and make stupid threads about it! It starts to get really lame.
Now it just happens to be a mmorpg live with it or just leave!

CelCawdro's Avatar


CelCawdro
12.24.2012 , 12:26 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by Pernicia View Post
Allow me to play devil's advocate for a minute and step into the shoes of a businessman at EA. SWTOR has attracted, for various reasons, the 3 distinct groups I identified in my last post. The development budget, I think we can all assume at this point, is not high enough to go after all 3 groups and probably not even 2 of them. The question now becomes "Which group of players do we pursue in order to create a sustainable income and stable subscription numbers at minimal cost?" So, with that in mind, I will try to look at all 3 groups in terms of longevity of subscription and cost to develop content aimed at them.

SWG Crowd
Cost - Initially, it would be quite high. The game has few to none of of the requisite features. Once these are in place, however, the cost to maintain becomes quite low.
Benefit - High. they'll keep on replaying minigames and grind out decorations for houses so long as there's enough like-minded players around.

KOTOR Crowd
Cost - High. Story content is by far the most expensive aspect of this game and takes the longest to develop.
Benefit - Low. The replayability just isn't there when compared to social or MMO content. After you go through it once or twice, that's it. These guys are not likely to stick around for repeatable content.

MMO Crowd
Cost - Moderate. These guys need frequent updates of decent cost. It's cheaper and faster to develop than story content, but more expensive over the long haul than social content.
Benefit - High. Like the SWG Crowd, these guys will stick around and continue to subscribe for repeatable content provided it is fun and challenging.

So, to answer our question, which group of players do we pursue in order to create a sustainable income and stable subscription numbers at minimal cost? For starters, we can rule out the KOTOR crowd. An MMO just does not lend itself to this play style, hence the high cost and low benefit. Also, this game does not really have the investment capital to develop social content right now. That leaves the MMO guys. There's no initial investment required and has the potential for high returns. This is really just the decision that makes the most business sense at the moment.
Forgive my Christmas Eve briefness, but allow me to play the advocate of the devil on the player's shoulder.

Firstly, the SW:G crowd is extremely niche, given how broad the market is today. They're vocal, sure. Particular on a game which many of them view to be the successor to their failed game. But these kinds of players, those willing to create their own content (and I count myself among them) are extremely rare, particularly in this business climate. Catering to this type of crowd would be high investment, I agree. But as SW:G so aptly demonstrated, it just isn't sustainable.

As for the MMO crowd, I ask a simple question - why are they here instead of WoW, Rift, Aion or dozens of other MMOs out there that do the exact same thing SW:TOR does, and usually better? The answer is your second point - story and setting. That is what sets SW:TOR apart from the rest of the genre. That is BioWare's strength. And that is what they have long since stopped playing to.

I'm not here to raid. I'm not here to grind dailies in any form. I'm not here to play out the exact same, repetitive and very often one-sided PvP matches day in and day out. Don't get me wrong - I'll partake in those activities. But they're simply filler. Needed filler, but filler nonetheless. There are other MMOs that do exactly what SW:TOR is apparently striving for with its endgame, with more polish and general quality. I tolerate these tropes of the genre because I am ultimately here for the story.

Is is feasible for development to focus on story, entirely? Of course not. That's not sustainable. But neither is catering exclusively to players that are playing other games already. Heck, even the most significant piece of post-release story that has actually materialized is simply content that was held back during beta - HK-51 and his questline has been around in the game files since the middle of closed beta. Story doesn't need to be the only part, but it needs to be a visible part of development going forward.

It hasn't been.

That needs to change.

Inzuher's Avatar


Inzuher
12.24.2012 , 12:41 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by CelCawdro View Post
Forgive my Christmas Eve briefness, but allow me to play the advocate of the devil on the player's shoulder.

Firstly, the SW:G crowd is extremely niche, given how broad the market is today. They're vocal, sure. Particular on a game which many of them view to be the successor to their failed game. But these kinds of players, those willing to create their own content (and I count myself among them) are extremely rare, particularly in this business climate. Catering to this type of crowd would be high investment, I agree. But as SW:G so aptly demonstrated, it just isn't sustainable.

As for the MMO crowd, I ask a simple question - why are they here instead of WoW, Rift, Aion or dozens of other MMOs out there that do the exact same thing SW:TOR does, and usually better? The answer is your second point - story and setting. That is what sets SW:TOR apart from the rest of the genre. That is BioWare's strength. And that is what they have long since stopped playing to.

I'm not here to raid. I'm not here to grind dailies in any form. I'm not here to play out the exact same, repetitive and very often one-sided PvP matches day in and day out. Don't get me wrong - I'll partake in those activities. But they're simply filler. Needed filler, but filler nonetheless. There are other MMOs that do exactly what SW:TOR is apparently striving for with its endgame, with more polish and general quality. I tolerate these tropes of the genre because I am ultimately here for the story.

Is is feasible for development to focus on story, entirely? Of course not. That's not sustainable. But neither is catering exclusively to players that are playing other games already. Heck, even the most significant piece of post-release story that has actually materialized is simply content that was held back during beta - HK-51 and his questline has been around in the game files since the middle of closed beta. Story doesn't need to be the only part, but it needs to be a visible part of development going forward.

It hasn't been.

That needs to change.
Nice to hear someone talking sence. The mmo crowd is not what keep this game going, WoW and Rift can provide far better "mmo experience." It is the star wars setting and the Bioware story that keep players here, do not mistake that. Start turning this game into a total WoW copy, and it will be this games slow but sure undoing.

Keep focusing on the story and setting, and add some classic mmo stuff for the casuel mmo players, and this game might last. I know for sure that I will stay, as long as the story is still coming. I don't mind there being larger periodes without story, as long as I know it will be coming.
"I am that which grips the heart in fright, hearkens night, and silences the light.".

FeelFlow's Avatar


FeelFlow
12.25.2012 , 10:32 AM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by Revanchis View Post
I have no doubt that RPGs will continue to stand strong on the PC and consoles. I don't think tablets are well suited to RPGs. Obsidian is actually currently in the process of making an RPG that harkens back to the Infinity Engine era of PC-RPGs. Once I'm done with this game I probably won't buy anything further from Bioware Austin, they are not RPG developers. I'm still looking forward to Bioware Edmonton's next game.
Interesting point of view! However I do think that tablets could be great for RPGs as:

It widens the audience for the games (there will probably be more tablet owners than console or gaming pc owners soon)

The people who have tablets aren't your typical gamer ie they will more likely to be interested in the interactive story that most RPGs are.

You don't have to be as 'twitchy' at the controls of an RPG, usually compared to a MMO or first person shooter.

Whet I'm saying is essentially that you could imagine KOTOR being quite easily ported to the iPad for example.

FeelFlow's Avatar


FeelFlow
12.25.2012 , 10:37 AM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by CelCawdro View Post
Forgive my Christmas Eve briefness, but allow me to play the advocate of the devil on the player's shoulder.

Firstly, the SW:G crowd is extremely niche, given how broad the market is today. They're vocal, sure. Particular on a game which many of them view to be the successor to their failed game. But these kinds of players, those willing to create their own content (and I count myself among them) are extremely rare, particularly in this business climate. Catering to this type of crowd would be high investment, I agree. But as SW:G so aptly demonstrated, it just isn't sustainable.

As for the MMO crowd, I ask a simple question - why are they here instead of WoW, Rift, Aion or dozens of other MMOs out there that do the exact same thing SW:TOR does, and usually better? The answer is your second point - story and setting. That is what sets SW:TOR apart from the rest of the genre. That is BioWare's strength. And that is what they have long since stopped playing to.

I'm not here to raid. I'm not here to grind dailies in any form. I'm not here to play out the exact same, repetitive and very often one-sided PvP matches day in and day out. Don't get me wrong - I'll partake in those activities. But they're simply filler. Needed filler, but filler nonetheless. There are other MMOs that do exactly what SW:TOR is apparently striving for with its endgame, with more polish and general quality. I tolerate these tropes of the genre because I am ultimately here for the story.

Is is feasible for development to focus on story, entirely? Of course not. That's not sustainable. But neither is catering exclusively to players that are playing other games already. Heck, even the most significant piece of post-release story that has actually materialized is simply content that was held back during beta - HK-51 and his questline has been around in the game files since the middle of closed beta. Story doesn't need to be the only part, but it needs to be a visible part of development going forward.

It hasn't been.

That needs to change.
What a great post, thanks and I can't add anything else here - I agree with you!

Aehwe's Avatar


Aehwe
12.28.2012 , 03:25 AM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by FeelFlow View Post
...Essentially, SWTOR should've been the successor to KOTOR.

Hindsight is always a great thing and it's easy to see why SWTOR was made as an MMO. When it was started, WoW was booming and making tonnes of cash per month. EA wanted their own WoW, I'm sure!

Whatever the case, it now is very clear that the game would've been far better as an RPG launching with:

Two player characters Sith and Jedi with a choice if you want to go down either the Knight/Warrior or Consular/Inquisitor paths (much like KOTOR).

Each side would have the choice of two different stories (i.e. essentially the x4 Jedi/Sith stories that we have in-game) each depending on what path you choose.

Probably less incidental quests i.e. just the class quests and the main planet story thread quests.

The current Flashpoints would be like some of the class quest instances.

Probably less planets (an RPG has less $ development budget) and more a linear story-driven scripted progression through them with real choices and consequences.

If the game went well, then extra class stories (Smuggler & Bounty Hunter) and extensions to your class quests.

I'm saying this as the story is bar far the best part of the game. I don't think that SWTOR ever got credit for it and sadly - in retrospect - the story can't shine in an MMO. I think it would've done in an RPG.
No thank you. I've spent xx days in SWTOR. I plan on spending xxx days more. By making it an MMO we get the best of every aspect. PvP'ers can PvP. Solo players can solo. Instances, raids. Great story with other classes aswell.

Lets face it, KOTOR 3 would have been a tiny shell of what SWTOR is today and what it will become. A single player game would have a tiny budget compared to SWTOR, thus a ton of features most likely a lot of the voiceover which makes this game unique and awesome would probably have been too costly. Instead Bioware let us, the players, the fans deicide what we would play as in the great Star Wars universe. Without being bound by canon set in stone.

Also what you are suggesting would mean every single player who enjoys SWTOR's Smuggler, Trooper, Bounty Hunter and Imperial Agent class could F*** Off. I personally think that is rude and narrowminded of you. Not everyone wants to play as sith/jedi. In fact a great deal of players don't play as sith/jedi.

Even though SWTOR have lost subscribers, I'm sure they've made tons of cash to make up for the cost of making the game and after F2P launched they've earned tons more. Hell the Cartel Market must be a great cashflow. I know I've spent enough $ there for a good amount of what a monthly sub would cost.
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