Time for a PvP Fix

First off, great job original poster for posting the concerns of the sorcerer community. I'm a bit concerned after reading the staff post. I do agree that the bubble stun should have never been implemented to begin with as this game has far to much cc as it is. They really should have offered sages and sorcerers other options such as increasing our damage and lowering the casting time of some of our force abilities.

However, my main concern is the viability of both the sorcerer and sage in pvp once bioware nerfs the bubble stun. Most melee have numerous slows, stuns, and mezzes to keep you in range. We have very little escape tools and if we do stay to cast we're normally taken down pretty fast. All three of our trees need to be looked at as we lack the burst to really take anything down. We really need our damaged increased significantly.

If they do end up nerfing the bubble stun which I believe they will it may be time for me to move on.

Well I think that since they said:
we can at least be hopeful that they won't mess with our survivability. Yes, it's a great utility, but we all know it's being abused. If they make it so you can only get the stun for bubbles on yourself, I don't see how that would affect our survivability at all. Granted, it's a big help sometimes when healing allies, but still changing that doesn't really mess with our survivability.

I hope they do fix the AC for the better. As a Lightning Sorc im absolutely sick and tired of being useless in PvP and easily killed. The smash/Sweep bandwaggon also did not help.

We are currently only useful for a bubble stun (not game changeing no matter what Smashmonkeys say, it just slows them down and puts a target on our heads for a 3 hit kill). Who designs a DPS tree to only be useful for it 3s bubble stun, my TB with crit only lands a 3-4k on a single target (not enough to even take the bubble off the target I am attacking). We need more than a little love. I want the PVP dev's to reroll all their smashmonkeys and only play sorcs for two months.

Exactly. I played against a team of sweepers on voidstar and finally got anoyyed at them wiping us out. So I started to put my bubble on everyone and ignored fighting when I could just to put the bubble when possible. Did it make a difference? Did not even build a wall against them.

One of the big issues with sorcerers is that devs lost even their own goal which was their main excuse for nerfing sorcs all the way.....making hybrids less appealing to players than full trees.
Atm 2 of the 3 best specs in PVP are hybrids,hybrid lightning/madness and hybrid corruption/lightning.So either Bioware had really poor devs or they were just telling us lies to sooth the qq about those nerfs.
Apart from community's qqing BW has to see the following facts:
-They have a class with bad high-end talents which don t give advantage by any means....dps,healing,survivability-wise.From the start of the game I never had the satisfaction of playing a full tree with all its perks more than a week(except for the lvling period).
-They have atm 3 AC that none wants them in RWZ as dpsers.Operatives,BH and sorcs.This is btw a big majority in Imperial side and I talk every day with ppl that are getting bored from the fact that can't participate in rwz and have to stick with the same lvl wz after a year in this game.There are good players that are not even getting a chance to prove they are worth because of their spec(unless if they are healers ofc).
-From the previous point I mentioned derives another issue.As Imps side was full of dps sorcs and bounty hunters(dps operatives became extinct after last February by BW's same actions) this makes PVP experience in imperial side a bit frustrating.There are ppl that don't want to play a healer but like to play sorcerer and don't want to reroll,there are returning players that have no clue about the position of sorcs in pvp atm and they enter wzs thinking they are still able to solo things or keep objectives for more than 5 secs and finally even good and well geared players aren't helped a lot by their class and have to put a lot of effort to stand out.When I enter a wz and see 4-5 sorcs in it I know that most probably the game will end up with ppl getting angry,yelling,leaving wz or giving up after the first 2-3 minutes of battle.
All in all,they should see to this situation before next content because it is affecting the whole imperial pvp side.

This needs a like button

Hello thread i am Believer and i used to be on Fatman, now on P5.

I am (was, because i not playing RWZs atm) a very sucessful rated healer. I also have gladiator experience in World of Warcraft, i have been healing MMOs for almost 9 years from now, and i have to say something. I have played more than 200 RWZs and my win/lose ratio is 8:1, back in the days when i played with my team i have taken on the best teams of old Fatman server (STS, ladles crew, Stoic, Hostile Takeover, you name it).

While i might not agree with everything that has been said on this thred, i have to say something that has been stuck on my gut since 1.2 hit: OUR CLASS BLOWS, OUR CLASS BLOWS HARD TIME, ESPECIALLY IN RATEDS.

And if they take away bubble stun from us, its going to be the end of it, there is no hope.

I will divide my post since its going to be a big one (im eloquent), the first one is going to be about my role: healing.

How does sorc heals pvp? We heal bad, big time, we suck ***. Why?

Well the first thing that part of the community (and Mr. Pack and Paw) must understand is that PVP IS NOT ABOUT SCOREBOARD NUMBERS, while numbers, be them heals, dmg or protect are nice anc cozy to have in the end of a match, they do not reflect the outcome of PvP.

What PvP healing is about them, if not HPS? PvP healing is about control, counter burst and deception, PvP in general is about OUTPLAYING your oponent and turning the tides of a fight, not just munching high numbers.

To this end, i have to say corruption / seer tree is dog tier for PvP and useless. Why? Because the main outlet of the tree is a clunky self turret AoE spell. Which is great for PvE, great for padding WZ scoreboard but it sucks for real PvP. While we have that dammed AoE as our main outlet of our tree, we will suck, period.

AoE healing doesnt save anyone for getting bursted down, AoE healing makes you a self rooted scarecrow, subject to multiple beatings, thats very bad when you are playing the amazing class that gets 3 shotted by any half decent dps. Most of the sages that say they are competitive with that trash AoE spec are actually being babysitted by a tank 24/7.

While players SHOULD work together and peeling IS needed in PvP. Healers shouldnt require 24/7 peeling. When i play a RWZ, i use my skills to have minimal peels, because the less peels i need, my team gets more time to actually KILL the enemy. If you need constant peeling, you are already on the backfoot and on your way to LOSE the fight.

What im trying to say is, AoE healing in PvP sucks and mr Pack and Paw should design us out of that if he wants us viable PvP healers, what i dont think he really wants because the dog state of our class is so visible that i just cant believe that they havent realised it by now.

Lets face it: they dont care about us because they are too busy planning the next amazing buff of their pet class, you know which class im talking about.


You talk a lot of funny stuff, but whats the real deal with sage healing

Ima tell you the real deal, why we are dog. The thing is playing sorc heal is a catch-22 experience. You have to move or you get dead, but your heals are weak and self rooting. So you move to avoid death but you cant heal while moving a lot. With that in mind, healing effetively a RWZ on a sage is a task that requires an OBSCENE amount of skill and yelds subpar results.


The way of the Hybrid, whats the deal with it anyway?

Aware that AoE stinks for PvP, aware of the trap that the old development team laid for us (and Pack and Paw seems to want to keep it) the best healers in the game went hybrid. Most people dont realise but 21/19/X is CONTROL hybrid with some degree of healing. Whats the point of hybrid? Hybrids give up a BIG CHUNK of their healing to have better control of the fight because of the stun bubble. The stun bubble, while it has subpar healing, it helps to break the offensive movement of the enemy team.

LOLMARA PET CLASS jumps bubble player, LOLSMASH, JK stun, while he actually hit the smash hes now stunned and cant continue with the burst sequence (wich would prolly connect with an obscene force shout hitting for over than 5k). This "stonewall" factor is what makes or breaks PvP for us, both on ourselves but also on the people were trying to protect. When a developer shows up and says hes going to take it away from us he really intends to shut us down, because WE JUST DONT HAVE THE HELING POWER TO KEEP PEOPLE UP WITH OUR AWKWARD HEALS WITHOUT THE BUBBLE BREAK.

Pack and Paws post is scumbag-ish as the class he designed, the restriction to bubble stun will be the last nail on the coffin for us.


You say our healing is dog but i have high HPS, where is your god now?

Remember i said HPS has nothing do to with PvP? PvE is that way ----------->

Yes kids, our healing sucks for PvP, i will tell you why, piece by piece.

Healing Trance - Its penance, as a gladiator disc priest i love it, albeit self rooting, the instant healing allows for fine stop and run playstile which is very cool.

Rejuvenate - Its not the best HoT in the world, but it has a decent upfront heal and gives us force bend so its kind of cool i like it.

Dark Heal - this one is a joke, its fast, it costs a lot of mana, it doesnt heal for dog. Its suposed to be a flash heal style, a counter burst crutch heal that heals for a good amount, costs a lot of mana so if you spam it you will get OOM. Its a flash heal with all the cons and no pros. Its also weaker than the flash heals of scoundrels / mandos. GG.

Dark Infusion - 3 seconds. ROFL. Full 3 seconds cast on the class that has to move or get dead. I really wish the scumbag of a dev who developed this spell burns in development hell. Also, to couple up, it doesnt heal a lot for the 3 second cast. Its a trap, doesnt worth it. All of the mirror heals of the other healing classes heals for more with less cast time. Its a joke. GG.

Bubble - sooo, our subject of appreciation, our princess. Im sorry kids, bubble sucks. I know i know its instant and stuff. Its kinda neat but i have to tell you. Bubble doesnt crit. What that means? It means it doesnt double scale with gear. While every skill in the game scales both with power and crit surge, bubble doesnt. So, it was great when everyone had 15k HP centurion gear and lower crit / surge ratings but now its dog tier. And as damage ramps up (new EWH sets and stuff) bubble gets weaker and weaker. Imagine if sawbones signature spell (spammable instant no cost emergency cockpack) couldnt crit? That would be bad for then huh? Yup, sucks to be us. A good smash prolly doubles the amount of damage my bubble can absorb, and im gunning in FULL ELITE WH YO. And after that JK 17 seconds lockdown more than enough time to get banged to death. GG devs i love you.

Couple this awkward heals that do not fit our playstile or dont scale properly with the general squishyness of our class and you have a deathtrap in the hands of a marauder / ptech team.

If you wanna play a sage, you better be a dammed god of PvP or just rerrol.


Ok, i get it, we suck, but how could we get better without being out of balance

First thing we need is to be moved away from AoE. AoE is what plagues us bit time. The problem with AoE it that it actually gives us good numbers so Pack and Paw thinks were fine. WERE NOT. Scoreboard heroes dont save the day in PvP, controllers and counter bursters do.

Second, we need our signature spell must be a real signature spell. YES, IT MUST CRIT. Theres no way you can balance us without making it crit.

What i think good development would look like:

- Get rid of confound, while a slow its ok and i will take it everyday, it kinda overlaps badly with force slow and most of the sages dont take it.

- MOVE salvation to counfound tier, make it a 2 rank skill. Rank 1 heals for 30% of what is heals now and rank 2 heals for 50% that it actually heals nowadays. Keep mana cost and cast time.

- our new 31 point skill is the ultimate barrier of awesomeness. Raise bubble sorb by roughly 10% and makes it crit thus becoming really a contender on the healing area. Make the bubble crit trigger an internal CD of 10 seconds to prevent force potency abuse (im that smart). Give the crit bubble a different animation.

- Lower bubble lockout to native 15 seconds. Give us something else for 2 tier bonus for pvp, something like we cant be grappled while blazing speeding "bye sucka" gangsta style.

- Redesign force bending effects on dark heal to make it DH be cast while moving (natures grace ftw)

- Give us either a dispersion like cooldown, like the shadow priest one. OR a passive dmg reduction CD when were getting dogpiled by your PET CLASSES. Something like 20% dmg reduction 10 secs after bubble burst should be fine. Its important IMO that if you give us a DEF CD that it should not allow us to heal when we are in it, thats why i mentioned shadow priest dispersion. It would generate interesting counterplay options for both teams thus making the game balanced and a hell of fun.

Mr. Pack and Paw i love swtor, i love my class, i want to keep playing but you need to fix us, we have awaited for long, please fix us. We are in pain.


PS: Im sorry if i sound frustated and flammy, but i thats how sage gameplay, even at high skill levels feels, ultimately frustating. No matter what you do, its an uphill battle. Fix us.

If you take away our shiny bubble burst, know that you are ultimately killing us, how can you sleep at night, seriously.

"THE FUTURE OF PVP IN SWTOR IS A RAIL SHOT HITTING A SAGE IN THE FACE, FOREVER"
_ Believer Orwell


INC DPS POST, when my mood gets better. =D

I literally love every idea you brought. If any of these got implemented I think most sage/sorcs would be more than pleased. I especially like the idea of force bend/conveyance making dark heal/benevolence an instant cast. Kudos to you big time. Sage/sorc is long overdue for some love from the devs.

"Around the pillars and far away from RWZs, why DPS sorc is awkward for Rateds"


As promised.

As much as i think that healsorc is underpowered in PvP, when i think about stoping PvPing in this game theres always one thought that soothes my mind: "COULD BE WORSE BRO, YOU COULD BE DPS SORC ROFL".

I have to say, i feel for my damaging brothers. You are dog, you are ultimately the worst specs in the game. Im sorry.

Sorc DPS is unreliable in PvP, while melee is too much reliable in general, the roles that should be availiable to DPS sages have been transfered to other classes by scumbag devs


Right off the bat, as ranged damage dealers with kiting tools, there are two possible roles for DPS sages in PvP.

1st Possible Role - Spike Ranged damager with a spice of control, AKA caster glass cannon.

2nd Possible Role - Sustained pressure ranged caster controller, AKA affliction warlock in cataclysm playing RLS.

Sorc DPS is none of both. Sorc dps doesnt have burst, sorc DPS doesnt have respectable DoT pressure, sorc DPS has dog survivability , and some degree of control but not enough native control to make them viable.

PREPOSTEROUS, SORC HAS LOT CONTROL

Think about control for a while. Think about a marauder charging, aweing a bunch of players and sprinting / camoing away. Everything instant, and hard to counter, just press 2 buttons (sometimes one) and you can control half of the enemy team. Think about instant AoE cockbang from scumbag scoundrels. Sorc has nothing of this kind, whats so good about our control anyway? Insta force lift? Thats cool thats cool, but thats pretty much all we have and insta force lift is actually on a longer CD than LOLMARA IM PET CLASS awe and LOL PT MONKEY CLASS point blank AoE stun.

BUBBLE BURST IS OP, NERF NERF

You have to understand that for a DPS sage to have bubble stun he has to give up almost all of his (already pathetic damage) making him the laughing stock of the galaxy. While bubble stun might be annoying for a charging scumbag, sage has not native control and if they want to take they have to spread thin, thus not having anything other than bubble stun really.


Sorc DPS is a second class citizen, doesnt have burst, doesnt have native control (has to spec on it), doesnt have sustained pressure, has laughtable survivability in an already low TTK game

What sorc dps needs is a freaking NELSON MANDELA to free us from the 1.2 apartheid. But thats not going to happen, instead scumbaggy Pick and Paw is actually going to hurt our only option of control, which is the bubble stun, then you are literally left with nothing.


Our roles have been taken away from us, and given to other classes

In the past sorc used to have decent AoE burst. It was taken from us and given to smash monkeys.

Just looks at how a ptech plays. Ptech have insane burst (sticky nade + assault plastique + rail shot x2) if you play your cards right. But look, ptech has insane sustained pressure too, with his DoTs hitting like mad trucks. The archetype of glass cannon caster style has been taken away from us and moved to a highly mobile, heavy armor class. Not to mention they actually have a decent defensive CD (25% dmg reduction 12 sec).

So why the hell would you take a sorc when you can take a PT, a sniper? Huttball, im sorry PTs are invaluable on HB because of fire pulls, and sins also have force sprint while being mad OP too.

Its obscene, almost pornographic that a class has been left in the dust so long with crap survivability, no burst, no sustained pressure tru dots or whatever, lacks everything really. WHAT ARE YOU GUYS SMOKING BACK THERE AT AUSTIN, I WANT A SNIFF OF BRO, IT MUST BE THE BEST DRUG EVER.

But ive seen a video of a sorc 1v1ing people and winning, that makes them good doesnt it?

It doesnt. Even as a healer spec, i can prolly solo any fool that tries to gun me solo. But thats more granted to the general incompetence of players playing pet classes than the might of our own class.

And, as the old mantra goes, RWZs arent about 1v1. Even in a 1v1, a sorc would take a long time to kill someone, thus giving the person time to LoS or make the call and kill the sage in 6 seconds.

The bottom line is, YOU CANT KITE TWO PEOPLE, YOU CANT KITE A WHOLE FREAKING RWZ TEAM FULL OF DEVS PET CLASSES.

And even if youre a god and actually kites a person, what good is that doing? You cant kill anyone fast enuff to snatch a node after all.

In real MMOs, kiting classes punish the players who are being kited. Be kited by a sage doesnt yield almost any punishment to the one being kited since the sage will take will take ages to kill him anyway, with the plethora of anti kiting tools almost every class has (stuns, pulls, short term invisiblility, sprints, better snares, multiple slows) makes pointless to play this kiting clown.

Just compare the experience of being kited by sage the experience of being kited by a mage in WoW. Thats what im talking about. Mages give something in trade for skilled kiting, sages give nothing. So everytime a sage steps in a WZ people are just going to dog on it and theres no drawback really.

When i look at our DPS trees i really wonder that the Devs dont know what to do with us. TK / Light is a lame self rooting low DPS trash survivability tree. Plays the same catch-22 as a seer healer. If you wanna damage, you have to stop, but if you stop, you are dead. So you cant damage, so you cant move, so they dogpile and smash your face and youre done bye. Oh and btw were taking away bubble stun.

Balance / madness is also laughable, it doesnt have survivability, burst, AoE or pressure really. Its a kiting monkey, a target practice for the PET CLASSES of Pack and Paugh. It also runs out of force 1 minute into the fight. Some ****** class design here i must say.

Sage DPS needs something, it needs something BADLY. Lets see if we can help our clueless devs here.

- You must stop smoking weed and bang your heads together, DPS trees must have an overall design around it. If TK tree is suposed to be burst cast, they have to burst high to compensate for their trash survivability, and they have to have some kind of tool to AT LEAST fight back when under heavy pressure.

- The dispersion shadow priest like CD should be implemented for DPS, should be baseline for. Would rock.

- Again, as you must develop a more well rounded design for PvP light, the same must be done for balance. It would be kickass if balance pvp worked like a crazy shadow priest / affliction lock, with low single target burst but melting face pressure on the enemy team, it would be an excellent couter to sawbones healing, your out of wack spolied princess healing class, god knows they deserve one. They need better DoTs, better innate survivability while keeping some of the kiting tools. Just unleash our power on kickass DoTs coupled along with the dispersion CD, would make us desirable *****es in a RWZ, also making the meta game more fun than just "OK GUSY LETS STACK MARA PT AND WE ALL DOGPILE THE SAME TARGET OK 123 GO KILL ROFL IM SO SKILLZOR".

Sincerely, sage DPS is a mess, its a testament of incompetence and scumbaggyness.

Fix it bro, we have waited too long, its time to fix us. Just envision a role to our trees and start developing around it INSTEAD OF DEVELOPING OUR CLASS BASED ON WHAT OTHER (PET) CLASSES THINK ABOUT US WHY YOU DONT DEVELOP US AROUND OUR OWN STYLE.

The only thing you are doing is serving our heads in a silver platter to any melee heavy team, since 1.2. No wonder you lost that many subs and PvP is kind of dead around all servers. You ARE NOT DOING A GOOD JOB in balancing us and we are bad. Someone must say it, i call it like i see it. Its not good, its not good enought, you need to step up and be more creative, you need to do it now, its already too long.

The bottom line is, our devs develop based on their pet class impressions of us and not around any unique playstile, thats why we are trash. In the story of SWTOR development, we are being tored apart patch by patch. Everytime a marauder cries about something cool we can do, Pick and Pay puts his thinking cap on and thinks about new and inventive ways to put us down. We arent a fun class, we a frustating class and thats excactly where the PET CLASSES want us to be. Marauders complain about us being too stronk but all they do is tunnel vision us 24/7, all that under Pack and Paughs Bandwagon.

I applaud you all!