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SWTOR should've been a RPG


BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
12.18.2012 , 07:02 PM | #61
Thats all very interesting, but whats done is done.


Nothing we can do about it. Deal with it.
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."

Revanchis's Avatar


Revanchis
12.19.2012 , 12:14 AM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by BrandonSM View Post
Thats all very interesting, but whats done is done.


Nothing we can do about it. Deal with it.
It's still nice to think about. Last I heard Obsidian was interested in getting a crack at making a KotOR 3. I know I'd enjoy whatever they could come up with.

Ausstig's Avatar


Ausstig
12.19.2012 , 12:51 AM | #63
Hey if they just released the game as a single player game, with some difficulty tweks and the option to Multi-player stuff, then I would buy it in a second. I like being able to pause my game and to keep saves of certain points.
Have Force lightning will travel

Pernicia's Avatar


Pernicia
12.19.2012 , 01:14 PM | #64
I think this thread, when taken holistically, is a showcase of why SWTOR is in dire straits at the moment. They've attracted 3 disparate and often conflicting groups of players which they have not managed to please.

1. The SWG Crowd - These are the people who loved their sandbox. They want mostly social content. This is the people posting for Pazaak, Sabaac, pod and swoop races, player housing, open space combat, etc. Unfortunately for them, this game was never intended to be a sandbox nor is it the successor to SWG.

2. The KOTOR Crowd - These are the people clamoring for decisions that effect the galaxy. They want persistent, vibrant worlds to explore, more freedom with their companions and branching rather than linear stories. Often, they care little for end game content, opting to level alts rather than take part in the FP/Op gear grind. As someone else pointed out, SWTOR has amazing story content for an MMO, yet falls short of a true RPG. Once these guys get bored with that, they're gone.

3. The MMO Crowd - These people are all about the end game. They want balanced PvP. They want fun yet challenging Ops released quickly. A lot of them will race through 1-50 by spacebarring conversations and ignoring exploration. They lost a lot of credibility with this group because they launched without, and in some cases still do not have, important QoL features such as group finder, customizable UI, server transfers, etc. Add to that the volume of unresolved bugs, and a rather bland and easy initial tier of Ops and it's easy to see why a lot of this crowd left for other games.

The only group I see EA even trying with are the MMOers. They've largely ignored the SWG folks. They've ticked off a lot of the KOTOR fans with the recent announcement that there is no class story or companion development with Makeb. The end game, however, is slowly but steadily improving. We've gotten a group finder and customizable UI. Server transfers are "a top priority" (tm). They've created 2 new WZs and announced a redesign of Ilum PvP. They've added 2 FPs that are a step up in difficulty from the original HMs. While EV and KP were easy and boring, EC offered more of a challenge, and TFB has some fun, complex fights.

There is still a lot to be done if this is their intended direction. There's bugs reported in beta that are still unresolved and more pouring in with each patch. Not having an option to copy our characters over to the PTS, I would imagine, means that these patches are under-tested and result in so many uncaught bugs. Class balance is woefully lacking. We still do not have server transfers. Itemization and set bonuses on tier gear are largely atrocious.
Pernici the Furious
<Night Stalkers>
Server: The Harbinger

Revanchis's Avatar


Revanchis
12.21.2012 , 12:57 AM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by Pernicia View Post
...snip...
It seems you've pretty much hit the nail right on the head. It's disappointing to see a Bioware-made sequel to KotOR going in that direction but I suppose that's life. Once I've finished experiencing the stories with my friends I'll likely move on to other RPGs. I'm hoping that Dragon Age 3 will be promising, but that remains to be seen.

I do hope that while I'm here they don't get to class balance. I hate to see characters weakened because of balance concerns in a mode I don't play. Like weakening powers in singleplayer so they can just put them as is in multiplayer.

FeelFlow's Avatar


FeelFlow
12.21.2012 , 06:38 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Pernicia View Post
I think this thread, when taken holistically, is a showcase of why SWTOR is in dire straits at the moment. They've attracted 3 disparate and often conflicting groups of players which they have not managed to please.

1. The SWG Crowd - These are the people who loved their sandbox. They want mostly social content. This is the people posting for Pazaak, Sabaac, pod and swoop races, player housing, open space combat, etc. Unfortunately for them, this game was never intended to be a sandbox nor is it the successor to SWG.

2. The KOTOR Crowd - These are the people clamoring for decisions that effect the galaxy. They want persistent, vibrant worlds to explore, more freedom with their companions and branching rather than linear stories. Often, they care little for end game content, opting to level alts rather than take part in the FP/Op gear grind. As someone else pointed out, SWTOR has amazing story content for an MMO, yet falls short of a true RPG. Once these guys get bored with that, they're gone.

3. The MMO Crowd - These people are all about the end game. They want balanced PvP. They want fun yet challenging Ops released quickly. A lot of them will race through 1-50 by spacebarring conversations and ignoring exploration. They lost a lot of credibility with this group because they launched without, and in some cases still do not have, important QoL features such as group finder, customizable UI, server transfers, etc. Add to that the volume of unresolved bugs, and a rather bland and easy initial tier of Ops and it's easy to see why a lot of this crowd left for other games.

The only group I see EA even trying with are the MMOers. They've largely ignored the SWG folks. They've ticked off a lot of the KOTOR fans with the recent announcement that there is no class story or companion development with Makeb. The end game, however, is slowly but steadily improving. We've gotten a group finder and customizable UI. Server transfers are "a top priority" (tm). They've created 2 new WZs and announced a redesign of Ilum PvP. They've added 2 FPs that are a step up in difficulty from the original HMs. While EV and KP were easy and boring, EC offered more of a challenge, and TFB has some fun, complex fights.

There is still a lot to be done if this is their intended direction. There's bugs reported in beta that are still unresolved and more pouring in with each patch. Not having an option to copy our characters over to the PTS, I would imagine, means that these patches are under-tested and result in so many uncaught bugs. Class balance is woefully lacking. We still do not have server transfers. Itemization and set bonuses on tier gear are largely atrocious.
OP here, great post - thanks. I think that you've really nailed it on the head. BW thought that they could evolve MMOs and they were very brave to try - but sadly they seem to have ended up with a product that didn't satisfy any of the target markets who would be interested in the game (I'm playing the game as I like the story and SW - not because I think it's an amazing MMO - much of it reminds me of WoW Wrath of the Lich King in 2009, or so).

Onwards and upwards re. the new xpac and I'm hoping that there are some good stories there.

xCyberpunkx's Avatar


xCyberpunkx
12.21.2012 , 10:25 AM | #67
Here is the list of every MMO I've played:

Ultima Online
Everquest
Anarchy Online
Everquest 2
World of Warcraft
Pirates of the Burning Sea
EVE Online
Star Wars Galaxies
Lord of the Rings Online
Runes of Magic
Guild Wars
SWTOR

I've never made it to end game in ANY of these MMO's because I lost my patience quickly and got tired of the grind. I mastered a bunch of professions in Star Wars Galaxies, but that didn't have an end-game really, so I'm not counting that.

SWTOR is the ONLY MMO I've actually stuck with until I reached end game, and I have the story-driven class quests to thank for that, because it held my attention until the very end, so massive kudos to Bioware.

I think SWTOR will be successful for gamers, like me, who don't particularly enjoy MMO's or who have never played one before.

Revanchis's Avatar


Revanchis
12.21.2012 , 10:33 PM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by xCyberpunkx View Post
Here is the list of every MMO I've played:

Ultima Online
Everquest
Anarchy Online
Everquest 2
World of Warcraft
Pirates of the Burning Sea
EVE Online
Star Wars Galaxies
Lord of the Rings Online
Runes of Magic
Guild Wars
SWTOR

I've never made it to end game in ANY of these MMO's because I lost my patience quickly and got tired of the grind. I mastered a bunch of professions in Star Wars Galaxies, but that didn't have an end-game really, so I'm not counting that.

SWTOR is the ONLY MMO I've actually stuck with until I reached end game, and I have the story-driven class quests to thank for that, because it held my attention until the very end, so massive kudos to Bioware.

I think SWTOR will be successful for gamers, like me, who don't particularly enjoy MMO's or who have never played one before.
Ya, but if they only focus on the usual endgame grinding stuff they aren't going to keep those types of gamers.

Pernicia's Avatar


Pernicia
12.23.2012 , 02:33 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Revanchis View Post
Ya, but if they only focus on the usual endgame grinding stuff they aren't going to keep those types of gamers.
Allow me to play devil's advocate for a minute and step into the shoes of a businessman at EA. SWTOR has attracted, for various reasons, the 3 distinct groups I identified in my last post. The development budget, I think we can all assume at this point, is not high enough to go after all 3 groups and probably not even 2 of them. The question now becomes "Which group of players do we pursue in order to create a sustainable income and stable subscription numbers at minimal cost?" So, with that in mind, I will try to look at all 3 groups in terms of longevity of subscription and cost to develop content aimed at them.

SWG Crowd
Cost - Initially, it would be quite high. The game has few to none of of the requisite features. Once these are in place, however, the cost to maintain becomes quite low.
Benefit - High. they'll keep on replaying minigames and grind out decorations for houses so long as there's enough like-minded players around.

KOTOR Crowd
Cost - High. Story content is by far the most expensive aspect of this game and takes the longest to develop.
Benefit - Low. The replayability just isn't there when compared to social or MMO content. After you go through it once or twice, that's it. These guys are not likely to stick around for repeatable content.

MMO Crowd
Cost - Moderate. These guys need frequent updates of decent cost. It's cheaper and faster to develop than story content, but more expensive over the long haul than social content.
Benefit - High. Like the SWG Crowd, these guys will stick around and continue to subscribe for repeatable content provided it is fun and challenging.

So, to answer our question, which group of players do we pursue in order to create a sustainable income and stable subscription numbers at minimal cost? For starters, we can rule out the KOTOR crowd. An MMO just does not lend itself to this play style, hence the high cost and low benefit. Also, this game does not really have the investment capital to develop social content right now. That leaves the MMO guys. There's no initial investment required and has the potential for high returns. This is really just the decision that makes the most business sense at the moment.
Pernici the Furious
<Night Stalkers>
Server: The Harbinger

FeelFlow's Avatar


FeelFlow
12.23.2012 , 03:43 PM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by Pernicia View Post
Allow me to play devil's advocate for a minute and step into the shoes of a businessman at EA. SWTOR has attracted, for various reasons, the 3 distinct groups I identified in my last post. The development budget, I think we can all assume at this point, is not high enough to go after all 3 groups and probably not even 2 of them. The question now becomes "Which group of players do we pursue in order to create a sustainable income and stable subscription numbers at minimal cost?" So, with that in mind, I will try to look at all 3 groups in terms of longevity of subscription and cost to develop content aimed at them.

SWG Crowd
Cost - Initially, it would be quite high. The game has few to none of of the requisite features. Once these are in place, however, the cost to maintain becomes quite low.
Benefit - High. they'll keep on replaying minigames and grind out decorations for houses so long as there's enough like-minded players around.

KOTOR Crowd
Cost - High. Story content is by far the most expensive aspect of this game and takes the longest to develop.
Benefit - Low. The replayability just isn't there when compared to social or MMO content. After you go through it once or twice, that's it. These guys are not likely to stick around for repeatable content.

MMO Crowd
Cost - Moderate. These guys need frequent updates of decent cost. It's cheaper and faster to develop than story content, but more expensive over the long haul than social content.
Benefit - High. Like the SWG Crowd, these guys will stick around and continue to subscribe for repeatable content provided it is fun and challenging.

So, to answer our question, which group of players do we pursue in order to create a sustainable income and stable subscription numbers at minimal cost? For starters, we can rule out the KOTOR crowd. An MMO just does not lend itself to this play style, hence the high cost and low benefit. Also, this game does not really have the investment capital to develop social content right now. That leaves the MMO guys. There's no initial investment required and has the potential for high returns. This is really just the decision that makes the most business sense at the moment.
Agree with your analysis it'll be MMO content all the way now with story content only because the rest of the game has it i.e. releasing content without story would seem weird.

I don't think we'll ever see any more class stories - for the reasons mentioned - and even then, I'm betting that the new content will have mostly alien language (ie subtitled) dialogue with the 'stock responses' from us.

I wish in a parallel universe we had got to see the KOTOR 3 RPG though. Oh well!