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Gamasutra: The Burning of Star Wars - The Old Republic

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Gamasutra: The Burning of Star Wars - The Old Republic

Lord_of_Mu's Avatar


Lord_of_Mu
12.19.2012 , 08:01 PM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by Rogoo View Post
There are none. Simply because they did a terrible job, and everyone sees it.

It is called a Hickman effect.
I've been hearing that term a lot recently. Of course it conjures images of some kind of Mass Effect Skit involving a badly cropped image of Mr Hickman applied to a Reaper and an army of enraged fans dressed up in their favorite N7 armor armed to the teeth ready to shoot down the space cuttlefish.

On the topic of the article. I agree with the conclusion and the suggestions. I'm not sure that I agreed with the delivery of the article.

Eldagore's Avatar


Eldagore
12.19.2012 , 08:33 PM | #132
I want to reply to this thread, and I suppose the article it is about- keep in mind I have been playing from middle october- not from launch like some. So I have not seen some of the evolution of the game from it's initial state, though I have inferred a bit from reading the patch note history and anecdotal things from these forums. That said-

The developers of this game must pull their hair out reading things like this article, and even the forums in general. As i have lurked here reading player complaints and requests for help etc., I have noticed one overwhelming truth: there is no way the developers could alter this game to make everyone happy. In fact, I would say based on a few months of reading that they have done a fairly good job trying to thread the needle down the middle of what feedback has been left here.

For example, the first time I came to this forum, there were two threads, about a half dozen apart on the same page regarding exploration and world size/content. Thread one was griping about speeders, mostly cost, availability, and the biggest chunk was about how slow they moved. it went off on a tangent about world design, how some didnt have nice groupings for quest givers to limit the amount of time out of combat. The other thread 1/4 page down was about how small the game world was, how it took no time to explore, how you were constantly in combat etc.

So I shook my head a little as I read those, wondering what the developers must think seeing that. how does one please the crowd when said crowd wants completely opposite things? IMO, they did a reasonable job balancing world giganticness with fight/story progress.

It really stems from a base player conflict: huge WoW style grinding MMO play vs KOTOR old school single player story games. A big chunk of the player base wants WoW with lightsabres, because thats what they like. Another big part wants KOTOR III, with a few vocal ones actually mad about the fact they even bothered to make this game online. The dev team has the daunting task of trying to make both at the same time. SOme players want traditional almost turn based MMO control, some want FPS shooter style twitch with lightsabres. The devs are supposed to make it both. Some players want stupid huge immensly detailed sparsely populated world to explore for hours. Some players want a diablo or DDO style where you only interupt fighting briefly to empty your backpack in town and get the next quest from the same 5 contacts. Some players want full fledged, no where is safe PVP, some wouldnt touch it with a 10 foot pole. Some players love gear, some players wish there wasnt any at all. The devs are supposed to do it all, AND tackle all the conflicting things and technical hurdles that go with these conflicts.

On top of that stuff, the dev team has that one other thing to deal with, the bane of all dev teams everywhere: marketing dept and corporate over-ride. If marketing says, "this is how much money we need to charge for this catagory of stuff" well, guess what. If corporate big cheese calls down to the lead designer and says "hey, WoW has like ten million players, and I want to buy a new yacht, so you know, WoW with lightsabres" well, guess what. Even the most brilliant development team ever has to bend over backwards for the corporate money investors, no matter what game or genre etc it is. And corporate people, well, you know, WoW does have 10 million players....


So anyway, in general I cant say I disagree with the article, but I will say this: the author can have whatever opinion they want, and voice it, and in the end, they are simply in one of the camps of players they are part of this community. I do not hold that opinion against them. I also do not share it, because I am not in the same camp.

Here is what i like- I like the story. I am likely more in the KOTOR camp then in the MMO camp, but, i do enjoy me some teaming for the unpredictability of it and social chats. End game? bah. raiding is for chumps, playing the same story over and over one billion times to get the ub3rst l33t gearz is not for me. but, i will play a story over several times if I enjoy it, which thankfully in this game I pretty much do. not like 50 times, but a half dozen is no issue, especially given I can be serious buisness, or srs bizn3ss because of the multiple reply options. Add some "voting" while playing with my brother and the conversations can be rather amusing. PvP? eh, i wont do it until I have done all the story stuff to satisfaction, and then i will likely partake in rookie fashion and not care if I get pwned or not.

As for the subs vs FTP, well, the system does EXACTLY what I thought it would, it allos people to taste the game, and if they like it, even a bit, it encourages them to sub up. And really, it should be that way. If you enjoy the game, you should pay something for it. 50 cents a day is hardly jaw dropping angry fist shaking amounts of money considering you can play 24-7 on an account(minus patch time) for, again, 50 cents a day. The prices on the cartel market are marketing dept issues, not dev team ones. And thing is there, rage all we want about prices there, if they sell enough to call it a success, then they priced it right. Thats what happens when it comes time to sell a product, digital or not, for real money. Look at new cars for a RL example. i couldnt buy a new car if I wanted to for the cost. but somebody is obviously, because the price is what it is. So rage against it all i want, the price point fits the company's financial goals.

Anyway, this got really long. Bottom line, the article, and people responding here, well, thats your opinion and you should stand by it. I disagree, and feel the dev team has done well with the balancing act of expectations. If anyone has failed at this game, it is marketing and corporate money grubbers.

Eillack's Avatar


Eillack
12.19.2012 , 08:34 PM | #133
Massively either bashes or is on its knees.

I never take anything they say seriously.
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Quote: Originally Posted by BruceMaclean View Post
..I think it's ultimately our fault for not communicating enough.

Placitum's Avatar


Placitum
12.19.2012 , 10:22 PM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by NinjaApacHe View Post
Sometimes I really wonder why people stick on the forums spitting on a game they should leave as they do not like it. You should stop looking for confirmations to your negative thoughts about SWTOR and do not waste your time here. Out here it's full of MMOs, and for sure there will be one that fits you perfectly.,
This person obviously didn't learn about Diablo 3. Its been a running joke that Diablo 3 was really "ForumCraft 3".

In actual truth, the majority that didn't just stick it on the shelf or throw it in the trash found the forums more fun than the actual game. What we saw there was a modern version of happened during the renaissance era when self important *******es (referring duly to both "liberal thinkers" and donkeys) who had too much time on their hands (a massive failure of the French secret police) would inform the world that because they knew only everything there is to know about universe (turns out to be only 42 things) that they knew how to fix a game made by a major studio packed with professionals. Amazingly enough most of the "Renaissance Posters" happened to come to the same general conclusions.

Jumajin's Avatar


Jumajin
12.19.2012 , 10:26 PM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by Eillack View Post
Massively either bashes or is on its knees.
Ahhh, so they're akin to an ex-wife. Gotcha.

BrianDavion's Avatar


BrianDavion
12.19.2012 , 11:01 PM | #136
IIRC Massivly liked Age of Conan, so take their opinions for what it's worth

sstanks's Avatar


sstanks
12.19.2012 , 11:17 PM | #137
Quote: Originally Posted by BrianDavion View Post
IIRC Massivly liked Age of Conan, so take their opinions for what it's worth
liked? they thought it was the greatest thing ever.

erei's Avatar


erei
12.19.2012 , 11:21 PM | #138
Quote: Originally Posted by Placitum View Post
This person obviously didn't learn about Diablo 3. Its been a running joke that Diablo 3 was really "ForumCraft 3".

In actual truth, the majority that didn't just stick it on the shelf or throw it in the trash found the forums more fun than the actual game. What we saw there was a modern version of happened during the renaissance era when self important *******es (referring duly to both "liberal thinkers" and donkeys) who had too much time on their hands (a massive failure of the French secret police) would inform the world that because they knew only everything there is to know about universe (turns out to be only 42 things) that they knew how to fix a game made by a major studio packed with professionals. Amazingly enough most of the "Renaissance Posters" happened to come to the same general conclusions.
While your comparison is really bad, may I point out that those "donkey" and "liberal thinkers" bring our world out from the Dark Age, to our modern times, and used every value we hold as important now to shape our world. With those idiots, we made some revolutions, and built democracies all over Europe. America earned his independence, freedom and democracy. Later, they abolished slavery. Also, those useless people made the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the US Constitution.
But yeah, except for that, they were mostly useless.

Anyway, back to the topic. Press use to bash SWTOR, mostly because it's what everyone want them to do. But sometimes, they are right.
It seems to happen more and more.
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GalacticKegger's Avatar


GalacticKegger
12.19.2012 , 11:22 PM | #139
Quote: Originally Posted by Eldagore View Post
I want to reply to this thread, and I suppose the article it is about- keep in mind I have been playing from middle october- not from launch like some. So I have not seen some of the evolution of the game from it's initial state, though I have inferred a bit from reading the patch note history and anecdotal things from these forums. That said-

The developers of this game must pull their hair out reading things like this article, and even the forums in general. As i have lurked here reading player complaints and requests for help etc., I have noticed one overwhelming truth: there is no way the developers could alter this game to make everyone happy. In fact, I would say based on a few months of reading that they have done a fairly good job trying to thread the needle down the middle of what feedback has been left here.

For example, the first time I came to this forum, there were two threads, about a half dozen apart on the same page regarding exploration and world size/content. Thread one was griping about speeders, mostly cost, availability, and the biggest chunk was about how slow they moved. it went off on a tangent about world design, how some didnt have nice groupings for quest givers to limit the amount of time out of combat. The other thread 1/4 page down was about how small the game world was, how it took no time to explore, how you were constantly in combat etc.

So I shook my head a little as I read those, wondering what the developers must think seeing that. how does one please the crowd when said crowd wants completely opposite things? IMO, they did a reasonable job balancing world giganticness with fight/story progress.

It really stems from a base player conflict: huge WoW style grinding MMO play vs KOTOR old school single player story games. A big chunk of the player base wants WoW with lightsabres, because thats what they like. Another big part wants KOTOR III, with a few vocal ones actually mad about the fact they even bothered to make this game online. The dev team has the daunting task of trying to make both at the same time. SOme players want traditional almost turn based MMO control, some want FPS shooter style twitch with lightsabres. The devs are supposed to make it both. Some players want stupid huge immensly detailed sparsely populated world to explore for hours. Some players want a diablo or DDO style where you only interupt fighting briefly to empty your backpack in town and get the next quest from the same 5 contacts. Some players want full fledged, no where is safe PVP, some wouldnt touch it with a 10 foot pole. Some players love gear, some players wish there wasnt any at all. The devs are supposed to do it all, AND tackle all the conflicting things and technical hurdles that go with these conflicts.

On top of that stuff, the dev team has that one other thing to deal with, the bane of all dev teams everywhere: marketing dept and corporate over-ride. If marketing says, "this is how much money we need to charge for this catagory of stuff" well, guess what. If corporate big cheese calls down to the lead designer and says "hey, WoW has like ten million players, and I want to buy a new yacht, so you know, WoW with lightsabres" well, guess what. Even the most brilliant development team ever has to bend over backwards for the corporate money investors, no matter what game or genre etc it is. And corporate people, well, you know, WoW does have 10 million players....


So anyway, in general I cant say I disagree with the article, but I will say this: the author can have whatever opinion they want, and voice it, and in the end, they are simply in one of the camps of players they are part of this community. I do not hold that opinion against them. I also do not share it, because I am not in the same camp.

Here is what i like- I like the story. I am likely more in the KOTOR camp then in the MMO camp, but, i do enjoy me some teaming for the unpredictability of it and social chats. End game? bah. raiding is for chumps, playing the same story over and over one billion times to get the ub3rst l33t gearz is not for me. but, i will play a story over several times if I enjoy it, which thankfully in this game I pretty much do. not like 50 times, but a half dozen is no issue, especially given I can be serious buisness, or srs bizn3ss because of the multiple reply options. Add some "voting" while playing with my brother and the conversations can be rather amusing. PvP? eh, i wont do it until I have done all the story stuff to satisfaction, and then i will likely partake in rookie fashion and not care if I get pwned or not.

As for the subs vs FTP, well, the system does EXACTLY what I thought it would, it allos people to taste the game, and if they like it, even a bit, it encourages them to sub up. And really, it should be that way. If you enjoy the game, you should pay something for it. 50 cents a day is hardly jaw dropping angry fist shaking amounts of money considering you can play 24-7 on an account(minus patch time) for, again, 50 cents a day. The prices on the cartel market are marketing dept issues, not dev team ones. And thing is there, rage all we want about prices there, if they sell enough to call it a success, then they priced it right. Thats what happens when it comes time to sell a product, digital or not, for real money. Look at new cars for a RL example. i couldnt buy a new car if I wanted to for the cost. but somebody is obviously, because the price is what it is. So rage against it all i want, the price point fits the company's financial goals.

Anyway, this got really long. Bottom line, the article, and people responding here, well, thats your opinion and you should stand by it. I disagree, and feel the dev team has done well with the balancing act of expectations. If anyone has failed at this game, it is marketing and corporate money grubbers.
QFT. Perspective is a wonderful thing.
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"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" ~ Edmund Burke‎
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Rogoo's Avatar


Rogoo
12.19.2012 , 11:46 PM | #140
Quote: Originally Posted by Eldagore View Post
Anyway, this got really long. Bottom line, the article, and people responding here, well, thats your opinion and you should stand by it. I disagree, and feel the dev team has done well with the balancing act of expectations. If anyone has failed at this game, it is marketing and corporate money grubbers.
Well, if you haven't been playing since launch you missed A TON of badly handled situations.

Have you seen all the false statements and broken promises they made ? Probably not.
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