Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Playing a Guardian is literally giving me a headache

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Playing a Guardian is literally giving me a headache

Mattmonkey's Avatar


Mattmonkey
12.19.2012 , 03:55 AM | #21
I leveled as a tank - it was the dumbest thing i ever did because it took longer than I needed to to level. So if i was doing it over i would level vig and go tank at 50.

If you are going to level as a tank then heres my advise: Most classes get all their abilities eairly and you spend most of the time leveling with them all so learn to play. Guardian get their abilities more slowly. I think it is because Guardians are more complex to master. to my mind its a design flawo because just as you get a play style sussed you get a new ability that is in some way important and has to be intergerated then just as you start to get the hang of that you get another.....

on the other hand it dosent really matter leveling is not that tuff. Suck it up and put in the grind. once you get to 50 you will still have to learn the class because you get many important abilities in the last 5 levels. so my advise level as vig.

if you want to abuse me for answering your question my way go ahead - but dont expect a response.

AMulls's Avatar


AMulls
12.19.2012 , 01:41 PM | #22
It depends.

There, I directly answered your question as to which skill (Hilt Strike or Blade Storm) to use first when both are off cooldown.

As for your follow up question, yes, some of the guides are outdated, but many still have relevant (and accurate) information.

Kurugi's Avatar


Kurugi
12.19.2012 , 05:49 PM | #23
Sorry to everyone about yesterday. I wasn't feeling well and was in a VERY grumpy mood in general, and that first response I got that told me to just play another class if I didn't like it just really rubbed me wrong and set me off on everyone else, so I apologize, and thanks for all the helpful responses I did get.

I was playing more yesterday and even when soloing playing a guardian just feels sloppy. I don't have any trouble soloing. It's actually pretty smooth all things considered, I just don't feel "good" playing my guardian for some reason. I don't have any trouble keeping aggro in FPs either.

I guess the best way to describe it is I feel like I use some abilities just to use them and not because I need to use them. Like I'll be like "uhh..guess I'll throw out a stasis since sunder and combat focus are on cooldown and I need more force..yeah". It doesn't feel precise or calculated though, it just feels like well I haven't used this in a while so there ya go.

My Jugg never felt like that though. I always felt solid playing my Jugg. After 40 I played a hybrid vengeance PvP build (this was before the talent tree revamp so you couldn't pick up stasis mastery) which really wasn't that less complicated than full defense, just replace Guardian Slash with OHS and take away Hilt Strike and it's pretty much the same, so I don't know why my Jugg felt great and my Guardian feels sloppy. Thing is I don't think I'm actually playing sloppy..it just feels sloppy, because a couple of my abilities I just use without having a "this is when I definitely need to use this ability" place for them, so I'm just throwing it out there like "yeah, I did it".

Anyway, I'm going in circles now. Sorry again for yesterday.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
12.19.2012 , 07:32 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
Sorry to everyone about yesterday. I wasn't feeling well and was in a VERY grumpy mood in general, and that first response I got that told me to just play another class if I didn't like it just really rubbed me wrong and set me off on everyone else, so I apologize, and thanks for all the helpful responses I did get.

I was playing more yesterday and even when soloing playing a guardian just feels sloppy. I don't have any trouble soloing. It's actually pretty smooth all things considered, I just don't feel "good" playing my guardian for some reason. I don't have any trouble keeping aggro in FPs either.

I guess the best way to describe it is I feel like I use some abilities just to use them and not because I need to use them. Like I'll be like "uhh..guess I'll throw out a stasis since sunder and combat focus are on cooldown and I need more force..yeah". It doesn't feel precise or calculated though, it just feels like well I haven't used this in a while so there ya go.

My Jugg never felt like that though. I always felt solid playing my Jugg. After 40 I played a hybrid vengeance PvP build (this was before the talent tree revamp so you couldn't pick up stasis mastery) which really wasn't that less complicated than full defense, just replace Guardian Slash with OHS and take away Hilt Strike and it's pretty much the same, so I don't know why my Jugg felt great and my Guardian feels sloppy. Thing is I don't think I'm actually playing sloppy..it just feels sloppy, because a couple of my abilities I just use without having a "this is when I definitely need to use this ability" place for them, so I'm just throwing it out there like "yeah, I did it".

Anyway, I'm going in circles now. Sorry again for yesterday.
Fair enough, to try to answer your question since you want to tank...

My advice is actually get out of the Defense tree altogether, tanking as a guardian is mostly gear, not skill tree. The reason why the hybrid build exists is because the Defense tree is actually a substandard tree.

You can tank as a Vigilence Guardian rather effectively, you can also tank as a Vigilence/Defense Hybrid.

Now if you're dead set on being a Defense guardian, the most sound suggestion would be focus on interrupting enemies and generating threat. Do not concern yourself with damage (sounds counter intuitive I know), your companion has to be a dps or the healer.

As people here will say I have a really unusual gear setup, however I tend to play either tank or a DPS role. Since you want to go with tanking you need to devote all your effort to simply generating threat (the amount of punishment you can take and your threat generation are your primary concerns), damage output is secondary. A Pure Defense Tank guardian tends to do substandard damage compaired to every other tank in the game, so you are reliant on whatever DPS you have to finish the job and you may want to avoid using Doc, because his DPS output isn't as good as Rusk for instance.

Be prepared to use taunt often, because your lack of damage output really hurts threat generation. So some dps will generate more threat that you naturally, I can generally generate more threat than a tank Guardian despite being in shien stance.

Another thing that was brought up is our abilities, many of the abilities that guardians really have to use for tanking can only be gotten fairly late in the game (other classes get some of their core abilities earlier).

That's all the advice I can give, since I lvled as a Vigilence DPS, I didn't use the tank tree aside for a few first level abilities.

Kurugi's Avatar


Kurugi
12.19.2012 , 07:59 PM | #25
Thanks Garfield. I've been thinking about it and I might give Vigilance a try instead. I think the 2 main reasons I haven't really looked at that spec are 1. I've heard it's a lot more focus starved since you're still playing in soresu form but without a lot of the talents that help mitigate the reduced focus generation (although I don't remember feeling that focus starved on my Jugg, and I think I played in Shien form pre-40 so I had that to compare it to. I definitely had less focus to work with but I don't remember it feeling too restricting), and 2. I leveled my Jugg with a similar build, and since Juggs and Guards are mirror classes I didn't wanna play the EXACT SAME build a second time.

Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Now if you're dead set on being a Defense guardian, the most sound suggestion would be focus on interrupting enemies and generating threat. Do not concern yourself with damage (sounds counter intuitive I know), your companion has to be a dps or the healer.

As people here will say I have a really unusual gear setup, however I tend to play either tank or a DPS role. Since you want to go with tanking you need to devote all your effort to simply generating threat (the amount of punishment you can take and your threat generation are your primary concerns), damage output is secondary. A Pure Defense Tank guardian tends to do substandard damage compaired to every other tank in the game, so you are reliant on whatever DPS you have to finish the job and you may want to avoid using Doc, because his DPS output isn't as good as Rusk for instance.
I've been a raiding tank in WoW so I realize what to focus on and what is required to tank. Damage hasn't really been my problem, I'm actually quite satisfied with how fast I kill mobs. Been using Kira since I got her and have kept her up to date gear wise. I'm currently on Balmorra so I'm about to get Doc but was planning to keep using Kira if I stayed Defense, but I might switch to Vigilance and just tank instances in Soresu form. Who knows, I might like it better (I did really like veng hybrid on my Jugg, but I was more focused on PvP. Never ran a flashpoint on her or did any group heroics). Plus I'd probably switch to using Doc instead since my kill speed would be a lot faster soloing in Shien form. Been getting kinda sick of Kira lately and her always-switched-on lightsaber impaling her head all the time.

My only concern is usually hybrid specs don't really come into their own until late because you need mid-tier talents from 2 different trees to really make the build "click". In Vig hybrid's case those talents appear to be OHS/Commanding Awe from Vig and Blade Barrier/Stasis Mastery/Lunge from Defense. If I switched to Vig right now it would be kind of painful losing Lunge and Stasis Mastery.

I do understand what you mean about Guardians being more late blooming in getting their abilities. I was playing a Vanguard tank but got board before I even reached 30 because I basically had my complete rotation minus the top ability in the tanking tree. They're a lot more simpler to play overall than the guardian though imo.

Thanks again for the response.

Kurugi's Avatar


Kurugi
12.19.2012 , 08:31 PM | #26
Ok, just respecced to Vigilance. Have a question though...

I don't have Lunge or Stasis Mastery any more so should I not be using those abilities while tanking until I can get those talents again?

I think I am going to like this set up better since now I can tank OR dps, and sometimes you run across that heroic group that already has a tank, so more options are good.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
12.19.2012 , 08:55 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
Ok, just respecced to Vigilance. Have a question though...

I don't have Lunge or Stasis Mastery any more so should I not be using those abilities while tanking until I can get those talents again?

I think I am going to like this set up better since now I can tank OR dps, and sometimes you run across that heroic group that already has a tank, so more options are good.
I actually have skill points in Defense, Vigilence, and Focus, but primarily vigilence.

The only thing from the defense tree you'll want is the +1 focus generation for sundering strike. Other than that, stay out of the Defense tree.

You'll want the shien stance as well.

Skills you should not get: Gather Strength and Stagger. Stagger is fairly useless in PvE due to the AIs generally not fleeing. Gather Strength is semi-handicapped by our own default guardian skills. Depending on how much of a tank you want to be, I would suggest Defiance as a possibility, but it isn't needed.

You'll still be using stasis, but you will find some reduced effectiveness. You'll want to be able to use force sweep for free as well. As far as lunge don't worry about it.

Attacks you'll want to focus on using while tanking:

saber throw, force leap, sunder, plasmabrand (this is when you'll generally get hit with a knockback), then if you can, use blade storm, close distance, sunder, masterstrike... If there are no cc's present you will force sweep, if you have enough focus, then you hit with overhead strike, if overhead reset master strike use it, sunder, force stasis, etc. Generally all you are worrying about is simply generating threat, throwing in your heavy hitting attacks whenever you have the focus to do so.

You will generally generate enough threat from those attacks to keep a boss's attention on you.

Kurugi's Avatar


Kurugi
12.19.2012 , 09:18 PM | #28
I'm confused. Isn't the hybrid spec 18/23? If you're full Vig (which I assume you are since you mentioned Plasma Brand) then I don't consider that a hybrid spec. Only way I'd be interested in speccing full Vig is if I wanted to DPS and only DPS, which I don't.

Unless you're talking about speccing full Vig while leveling then switching to hybrid at 50..

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
12.19.2012 , 09:28 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
I'm confused. Isn't the hybrid spec 18/23? If you're full Vig (which I assume you are since you mentioned Plasma Brand) then I don't consider that a hybrid spec. Only way I'd be interested in speccing full Vig is if I wanted to DPS and only DPS, which I don't.

Unless you're talking about speccing full Vig while leveling then switching to hybrid at 50..
Believe it or not you actually can tank as a Vigilence, tanking is mostly gear not the actual skill trees.

The hybrid build is also supposed to be effective, but I didn't go that route. You will get more threat as a hybrid though (you just want to use overhead strike a lot).

Kurugi's Avatar


Kurugi
12.19.2012 , 09:34 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Believe it or not you actually can tank as a Vigilence, tanking is mostly gear not the actual skill trees.

The hybrid build is also supposed to be effective, but I didn't go that route. You will get more threat as a hybrid though (you just want to use overhead strike a lot).
Yeah, I always thought the big draw to hybrid was OHS just being better single target threat than Guardian Slash, and Blade Barrier being more effective with the reduced CD on Blade Storm.

I'm liking soloing a LOT better with Vig though. It just feels smoother, I can actually watch fights more instead of staring at my focus bar and abilities all the time. Almost makes me want to just play DPS instead of tank...almost. Depends on how I like tanking with this build. I really liked Vig hybrid in soresu form for PvP, but dunno if it'll translate as well to PvE tanking.

In PvP it was nice (this was before 1.2 btw, dunno if it's changed a lot since then. Tried Focus at 40 on my Jugg but didn't like it) because you could defend and guard people etc. but I found it was really good for 1v1 too, because you still had decent damage output with OHS (think I took Force Rush over Blade Barrier though for extra damage so my Blade Storms always crit). I think the reason I had less issue with focus was because in PvP Defiance triggers extremely frequently from all the CC going around, so I can see focus being a lot more tight in PvE.