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Kaggath Series: Darth Sidious vs Sith Emperor

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Sidious vs Sith Emperor

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.19.2012 , 06:09 PM | #261
Quote: Originally Posted by GrimAce View Post
Keep in mind the Rebellion had basically gathered everything they had for Endor to ensure the second Death Star remained inoperable. The news that Palpatine himself was overseeing the operation only strengthened their resolve. It was a desperate, high risk gamble - they simply couldn't allow the threat of another Death Star to frighten the galaxy into submission. Even with the support of Ackbar and the Mon Calamari, they were losing, badly.

That said though, yes the Sith Empire had their own issues with infighting and rebellion, and it was equally widespread. On top of that, so many Sith Lords were pursuing private agendas rather then focusing on the war effort itself, which is a huge disadvantage to them compared to the Galactic Empire.

Palpatine was pretty much influencing the entire galaxy with an unparralelled form of battle meditation. That's a massive advantage that the Emperor can't match. Look at the battle for the Star Forge and the effect on the battle it had there in only a localised form - the Republic, horrendously outnumbered and outgunned, still managed to achieve a total victory over the surrounding fleet before Malak was even dead, giving them time to position their fleet right on top of the Star Forge itself unimpeded.

On a galactic scale against another galactic superpower, and combined with the fact that the Empire's training regime was focused around facing large armies in the field rather then opposing guerrila warfare, and the fact that they are highly experienced at it (Look at the entirety of the Clone Wars, and even the attack on Echo Base. When they know what they're up against and battles resemble traditional warface, the Empire shines) means that, yes, even against Sith the Stormtrooper Corps shines.

Also keep in mind that the Empire were pretty damn good at killing Jedi in the past. Luke has plot armour, so you can't really factor that in as a rebuttal.

The Sith Empire had a thousand years to prepare, sure...but they can still only field so many men from the planets they have. That limits their overall military power both on the ground and in space. The Galactic Empire on the other hand has...well, the whole galaxy at it's disposal, and the resources and infrastructure of the Republic that preceded it. They can field more men, more ships, they have more money to work with so they don't go bankrupt in the process, and they've got the advantage of experience in the field at conventional warfare. Finally, they have the influence of Palpatine himself, who has a massive effect on morale and efficiency which becomes even more effective in conventional warfare scenarios, where Palpatine knows where to focus his influence to be the most effective.

I'm not saying the Sith Emperor wouldn't put up a good fight - he would, he's definately going to give the Empire a massive shake-up - but in this theatre he can't win. He doesn't have the manpower to face a fully militarized Empire (The Republic tends to field much smaller armed forces in peacetime comparatively and has to rush to build up their forces again when a threat arises), his faction doesn't have the unified resolve in the higher echelons that the Galactic Empire does, his forces are comparatively greener and he's at a massive disadvantage due to Palpatine's influence over the galaxy.

And I know, yes yes, The Sith Emperor has his Sith and his one-man armies and whatnot, but your queen is pretty useless if you've got no pawns to work with. And this is definately a battle that would be decided in a major way by the pawns.
You make some good points. However I would like to point out that Vitiate's forces wouldn't be "green" in any way.

But I still disagree concerning the effectiveness of the Sith and the size comparison of the two Empires.

Concerning the Size of the SE: watch the timeline about the Battle of Bothuwai. I think a map on it displays the Empire and Republic controlling a ratio of 7/4 of the galaxy. That's a lot of galaxy the SE is controlling. It's not the ENTIRE galaxy, but it's a lot. That + all the Sith + Vitaite's brainwashing is what wins it for the SE in my opinion.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
12.19.2012 , 06:09 PM | #262
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
The SE has Moffs as well.

Vitiate can sway troops to his side just as easily as Sidious + he's a master at controlling people's minds.

BTW everybody: the people who are under the influence of Vitiate's mind control have a lot of power. Just looka at Vitiate's Bodyguard. The head bodyguard stood up to Lord Scourge (if I remember correctly). With that in mind, Vitiate can brainwash large numbers of people and then send them deep into GE to wreck the place up or steal info.
Yes, both have Moffs. I assumed that the Moffs on both side stay true to their allegiance. But the SE has a lot of Sith in their command chain. And most Sith will always follow their own goals. Palpatine would certainly convince some of them to join his side.

Vitiate has mid control, but it only works if he sees the person face to face once. After Palpatine notices that the troops he sends against the Emperor turn against him, he wouldn't send them anymore.

I'd say: If there is infighting, it will hurt the SE more than the GE. If there is no infighting... well, we already discussed this.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
12.19.2012 , 06:14 PM | #263
I usually like to support the underdogs in these threads, because then I have to convince myself as well as others.

That being said, I do think the Sith Empire is the underdog here. The Galactic Empire is just so.... HUGE. (Quantity over quality, anyone?)

The Kaggath comes down to the death of the person. Be the military strong or not, if there's infighting or not, there still has to be a plan to take down the leader.

I just don't see how the Sith Empire could kill Darth Sidious.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

GrimAce's Avatar


GrimAce
12.19.2012 , 06:34 PM | #264
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
You make some good points. However I would like to point out that Vitiate's forces wouldn't be "green" in any way.

But I still disagree concerning the effectiveness of the Sith and the size comparison of the two Empires.

Concerning the Size of the SE: watch the timeline about the Battle of Bothuwai. I think a map on it displays the Empire and Republic controlling a ratio of 7/4 of the galaxy. That's a lot of galaxy the SE is controlling. It's not the ENTIRE galaxy, but it's a lot. That + all the Sith + Vitaite's brainwashing is what wins it for the SE in my opinion.
Well, I'm still not fully versed in this timeline, but before the invasion on the Republic what have the Sith Imperial forces faced in open combat? A thousand years of isolationalism is great for building up numbers, but they don't really have much field experience. The Empire's already fought and won a galactic conflict.

As for territories...I take it this is the map you're looking at? Ignore the labels.

http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u...RMAPTheory.jpg

Anyway, looks more like a 6/4 split in favour of the Republic. Though keep in mind much of the Sith territory includes the Unknown Regions and Chiss space, which we know very little about. The Empire's only had that thousand years to explore and colonize new worlds in that area, so overall yes they owned a considerable chunk of the galaxy, but the Republic still has probably about 60-70% of the population.

And again, I think you're overestimating the Sith. Obviously there's conflicting sources on what can take a Force User down, but Movie canon's got Jedi Masters falling to troopers, so that's probably the most credible source we have for a similar scenario. The Empire still has the vast majority of manpower and experience, and Vitiat'ess mental influence I think is also being over-estimated. Yes, he can pretty much mind control someone, but we don't know much about the other mechanics around it (feel free to link me with some information if you do have it though)
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Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.19.2012 , 06:55 PM | #265
I'm just going to pop in and say a few things concerning the Sith.

The Sith are not insta-win buttons. Remember Geonosis? The most powerful Jedi fought in that battle and they were almost all killed if not for Yoda. As powerful as Jedi like Mace Windu, Plo Koon, and Obi-Wan were, they wouldn't have lasted long against that army of droids.

Now picture an group of Sith (undoubtedly less powerful than those named above) doing battle against an army of Stormtroopers, heavy walkers, Dark Troopers etc. See the point? Against an overwhelming number of Imperial troops, the Sith army gets wiped out.

Edit: Not a few things I guess
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

GrimAce's Avatar


GrimAce
12.19.2012 , 07:00 PM | #266
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I'm just going to pop in and say a few things concerning the Sith.

The Sith are not insta-win buttons. Remember Geonosis? The most powerful Jedi fought in that battle and they were almost all killed if not for Yoda. As powerful as Jedi like Mace Windu, Plo Koon, and Obi-Wan were, they wouldn't have lasted long against that army of droids.

Now picture an group of Sith (undoubtedly less powerful than those named above) doing battle against an army of Stormtroopers, heavy walkers, Dark Troopers etc. See the point? Against an overwhelming number of Imperial troops, the Sith army gets wiped out.

Edit: Not a few things I guess
To be fair, the majority of the Jedi deaths were in the Arena, where the Jedi were out-maneuvered, surrounded and outnumbered - and they put up a hell of a fight. But I do still agree that the usefulness of Sith on the battlefield is being over-estimated, especially against well trained and experienced Jedi killers like the Stormtrooper Corps.
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Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.19.2012 , 07:09 PM | #267
Quote: Originally Posted by GrimAce View Post
To be fair, the majority of the Jedi deaths were in the Arena, where the Jedi were out-maneuvered, surrounded and outnumbered - and they put up a hell of a fight. But I do still agree that the usefulness of Sith on the battlefield is being over-estimated, especially against well trained and experienced Jedi killers like the Stormtrooper Corps.
Yeah, that was the point. The Stormtrooper corps is nearly limitless and the veterans are experienced with killing Jedi, specifically the 501st legion.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.19.2012 , 07:15 PM | #268
Quote: Originally Posted by GrimAce View Post
Well, I'm still not fully versed in this timeline, but before the invasion on the Republic what have the Sith Imperial forces faced in open combat? A thousand years of isolationalism is great for building up numbers, but they don't really have much field experience. The Empire's already fought and won a galactic conflict.

As for territories...I take it this is the map you're looking at? Ignore the labels.

http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u...RMAPTheory.jpg

Anyway, looks more like a 6/4 split in favour of the Republic. Though keep in mind much of the Sith territory includes the Unknown Regions and Chiss space, which we know very little about. The Empire's only had that thousand years to explore and colonize new worlds in that area, so overall yes they owned a considerable chunk of the galaxy, but the Republic still has probably about 60-70% of the population.

And again, I think you're overestimating the Sith. Obviously there's conflicting sources on what can take a Force User down, but Movie canon's got Jedi Masters falling to troopers, so that's probably the most credible source we have for a similar scenario. The Empire still has the vast majority of manpower and experience, and Vitiat'ess mental influence I think is also being over-estimated. Yes, he can pretty much mind control someone, but we don't know much about the other mechanics around it (feel free to link me with some information if you do have it though)
Actually, that's not the map I was talking about. I'm unsure my 7/4 ratio is exact, but that's what I remember. I'd watch the video again, but it won't work for me. Could someone else watch the Battle of Bothuwai video and back me up on this?

As for the SE's soldier's experience, I was talking about there experience prior to fighting the Great Galactic War. The war was about 20-30 years long I think, and it would have created some wicked veterans. So the SE's soldiers are by no means green.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.19.2012 , 07:18 PM | #269
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I'm just going to pop in and say a few things concerning the Sith.

The Sith are not insta-win buttons. Remember Geonosis? The most powerful Jedi fought in that battle and they were almost all killed if not for Yoda. As powerful as Jedi like Mace Windu, Plo Koon, and Obi-Wan were, they wouldn't have lasted long against that army of droids.

Now picture an group of Sith (undoubtedly less powerful than those named above) doing battle against an army of Stormtroopers, heavy walkers, Dark Troopers etc. See the point? Against an overwhelming number of Imperial troops, the Sith army gets wiped out.

Edit: Not a few things I guess
As for the heavy walkers and Dark Troopers you named: the SE has similar stuff. We've seen Imperial Tanks before. We've seen super-soldiers (Power Guards) and colassal war droids. The Empires are very similar except the GE is a bit bigger and the SE has Sith.

GrimAce's Avatar


GrimAce
12.19.2012 , 07:24 PM | #270
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Actually, that's not the map I was talking about. I'm unsure my 7/4 ratio is exact, but that's what I remember. I'd watch the video again, but it won't work for me. Could someone else watch the Battle of Bothuwai video and back me up on this?

As for the SE's soldier's experience, I was talking about there experience prior to fighting the Great Galactic War. The war was about 20-30 years long I think, and it would have created some wicked veterans. So the SE's soldiers are by no means green.
I think you mean this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P31fsYR9TWo

3:30 approximately. If we're going by that though, it throws a lot of other factors into question - and as we see from the game, conquest doesn't mean immediate 100% loyalty. Plus, blitzkreig tactics are great for overwhelming an enemy, but you usually wind up with an inability to hold those new territories. The game has laid out pretty well that even with the reduced territories following the Treaty, the Sith Empire was struggling to hold its new territories.

I think it would be safer and easier for the purpose of the thread to stick with the rough size constraints of the Sith Empire at roughly the last months of the Treaty of Coruscant - the setting members are most familiar with. But I'm not adjudicator, so that's just my suggestion.
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