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Tanks and/or shield generators are dysfunctional and underpowered at level 40+

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Tanks and/or shield generators are dysfunctional and underpowered at level 40+

patchew's Avatar


patchew
11.30.2012 , 05:59 AM | #31
Couldnt we nerf dps so that they cant behave like tanks and pull mobs all the time without dying.
I vote for this.

Rothie's Avatar


Rothie
12.17.2012 , 03:18 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Slurmez View Post
shields and to a slightly lesser extent, armour, are junk as they only mitigate weapon damage (white numbers) and not any other damage type like force and tech. Its a horrible system
Which is why I said they need to be tweaked.
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Fornix's Avatar


Fornix
12.17.2012 , 04:51 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by patchew View Post
Couldnt we nerf dps so that they cant behave like tanks and pull mobs all the time without dying.
I vote for this.
You may be able to nerf a class, but you can't nerf the player. And unfortunately, way too many DPS are obsessed with just one thing; DPS. Whilst completely forgetting about their threat.

This isn't much of a problem in the long run, however way too many DPS start with high threat skills as openers. Preferably already the moment you're running/jumping in as a tank. Meaning the first thing the boss does, is try to move away from you. You can taunt it, sure. However, the effect of the taunt at that moment is still very limited as it gives an exponential increase. As a result, they'll quickly pull again if they fail to drop threat or use less threat-inducing skills.

Reducing threat on DPS skills a bit, won't be all too effective there.

Throwing in a ingame threatmeter which in big, red letters screams "You are about to over-aggro the current tank. Get ready for tanking!" however will probably scare enough off to finally drop their TPS.

Also in terms of DPS simply doing it wrong, imagine the following, common situation. Area taunting, 5 targets. My main target is target A. What does DPS do? Single target B, C, D and E whilst completely ignoring A. Then just to shout tank!
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Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
12.17.2012 , 05:46 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_of_Mu View Post
Are you in tank stance?
How much shield rating or % do you have?
How much Absorb rating or % do you have?
How much defense rating or % do you have?
Are you using items with the correct main stat?
When was the last time you visited a trainer?
Have you upgraded your hilt, barrel, armoring, mods, enhancements?
Are you using implants and earpieces?
Are you managing your resources correctly or as best as possible?
Quote: Originally Posted by MillionsKNives View Post
I'll add to this:

Are you specced into the correct tree?
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafaman View Post
And I'll add:

Are you playing your class? Using mitigation, avoidance, and CDs as appropriate?
And I'll sum it all up in ONE sentance:

Why aren't you playing a Marauder/Sentinal instead.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
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SturmUndSterne's Avatar


SturmUndSterne
12.17.2012 , 06:07 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Fornix View Post
You may be able to nerf a class, but you can't nerf the player. And unfortunately, way too many DPS are obsessed with just one thing; DPS. Whilst completely forgetting about their threat.

This isn't much of a problem in the long run, however way too many DPS start with high threat skills as openers. Preferably already the moment you're running/jumping in as a tank. Meaning the first thing the boss does, is try to move away from you. You can taunt it, sure. However, the effect of the taunt at that moment is still very limited as it gives an exponential increase. As a result, they'll quickly pull again if they fail to drop threat or use less threat-inducing skills.

Reducing threat on DPS skills a bit, won't be all too effective there.

Throwing in a ingame threatmeter which in big, red letters screams "You are about to over-aggro the current tank. Get ready for tanking!" however will probably scare enough off to finally drop their TPS.

Also in terms of DPS simply doing it wrong, imagine the following, common situation. Area taunting, 5 targets. My main target is target A. What does DPS do? Single target B, C, D and E whilst completely ignoring A. Then just to shout tank!
Of course, most DPS are trained to do this because if they don't burn down B, C, D, and E, the tank won't add any threat to them, so as soon as the taunt wears off, all four immediately aggro the healer.

Fornix's Avatar


Fornix
12.17.2012 , 06:39 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by SturmUndSterne View Post
Of course, most DPS are trained to do this because if they don't burn down B, C, D, and E, the tank won't add any threat to them, so as soon as the taunt wears off, all four immediately aggro the healer.
Which is perfectly fine, if the following response isn't "tank!!" .

Healer aggro is absurd though in this game, and if any has to be adjusted, it's that. It's too easy as a healer in this game to purposeful pull away aggro from a tank in this game if desired. Even directly after taunting, a healer if wanted is still able to pull away threat within no-time.

Which truthfully, makes little sense, as their resource bar is sufficient motivation not to excessively heal. On top of the fact that the healer stands distanced from the tank, allowing for the tank to pick up the mob(s) again anyway prior to them even reaching the healer.

And the preventive guarding combined with rotational area taunting + threat gains on ranged packs also isn't the most complicated of tactics to warrant healers pulling the high levels of aggro initially.
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Jawstheshark's Avatar


Jawstheshark
12.17.2012 , 09:32 AM | #37
Being a PT tank in mostly Dread Lord gear. My observation of the biggest issue talent/stat/class wise for the PVE tank world is that Threat scaling is not on the same curve as DPS scaling.

This causes an effect that as you and your DPS'ers gear up, and presuming your DPS are good at what they are doing, it becomes progressively harder to allow them to perform at their best and still retain boss control. This problem is only going to get worse as we get more tiers of gear.


Now for PvP, PT tanks just do not have enough survivability imho. I hop in my mostly WH set and just do not feel like a tank. Very hard to kill anyone, and it does not take much to drag me down to dead. Have been times with my bubble up I have gone from 80% to dead in the time a stun takes to run its course after my get out of stun is already on CD.

Rafaman's Avatar


Rafaman
12.17.2012 , 10:25 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Jawstheshark View Post
Being a PT tank in mostly Dread Lord gear. My observation of the biggest issue talent/stat/class wise for the PVE tank world is that Threat scaling is not on the same curve as DPS scaling.

This causes an effect that as you and your DPS'ers gear up, and presuming your DPS are good at what they are doing, it becomes progressively harder to allow them to perform at their best and still retain boss control. This problem is only going to get worse as we get more tiers of gear.


Now for PvP, PT tanks just do not have enough survivability imho. I hop in my mostly WH set and just do not feel like a tank. Very hard to kill anyone, and it does not take much to drag me down to dead. Have been times with my bubble up I have gone from 80% to dead in the time a stun takes to run its course after my get out of stun is already on CD.
Yup. I'm not in full Dread yet but getting there and as for PVE I think this captures it. A well placed taunt can overcome some threat issues but not all so... yea, control can be come a problem.

However, it is a catch 22 for dps. On the one hand, and most especially in NiM, they are told they need consistently the highest DPS output possible. On the other hand, they are told manage and or lower their threat which as you guys know directly correlates to dps.

Overall, I'm happy with the game mechanic. I use taunts when needed but I try to control mobs with my high threat generating abilities. As Shadow Tank, I have a couple that are particularly effective until dps hit huge bursts. At that point a well placed taunt is required.

MillionsKNives's Avatar


MillionsKNives
12.17.2012 , 10:29 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Fornix View Post
Which is perfectly fine, if the following response isn't "tank!!" .

Healer aggro is absurd though in this game, and if any has to be adjusted, it's that. It's too easy as a healer in this game to purposeful pull away aggro from a tank in this game if desired. Even directly after taunting, a healer if wanted is still able to pull away threat within no-time.

Which truthfully, makes little sense, as their resource bar is sufficient motivation not to excessively heal. On top of the fact that the healer stands distanced from the tank, allowing for the tank to pick up the mob(s) again anyway prior to them even reaching the healer.

And the preventive guarding combined with rotational area taunting + threat gains on ranged packs also isn't the most complicated of tactics to warrant healers pulling the high levels of aggro initially.
Actually healer aggro is easy to avoid and makes perfect sense when you understand threat mechanics. Simply, healers only take aggro if no one else attacks the target at all.

Healers gain a fraction of the amount of their heal as threat to all enemies currently in combat.
DPS gain 1 point of threat for 1 point of damage to whomever they attack.
Tanks gain 2 points of threat for 1 point of damage to whomever they attack.
Taunts put the tank at 110/130% of the threat of the person with aggro.

Guard is useless on healers because they already gain such small amounts of threat that reducing that number doesn't make a difference. Taunting from healers will only keep them off the healer for the duration of the taunt for the same reason. 110/130% threat on a tiny amount of threat puts you an even tinier bit ahead of them.

Damaging the target however will easily overcome the healer's threat. Just attacking a target once can prevent an enemy from attacking a healer for most of a fight.

tindin's Avatar


tindin
12.17.2012 , 02:07 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_of_Mu View Post
Are yoin tank stance? huh? whats that..or i dont need it
How much shield rating or % do you have? i dont need it
How much Absorb rating or % do you have? see above
How much defense rating or % do you have? see above
Are you using items with the correct main stat? i have full crit and power what else do i need
When was the last time you visited a trainer? where is he again?
Have you upgraded your hilt, barrel, armoring, mods, enhancements? why do you think i'm running this
Are you using implants and earpieces? sorry never seen any drop
Are you managing your resources correctly or as best as possible? i'm hitting the mob in front of me i'm i not
there ya go the pro tank answers