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How can anyone take the empire seriously?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
How can anyone take the empire seriously?

Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
12.17.2012 , 03:37 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Lium View Post
Recently, however, I've started playing a marauder so I can experience the other side of the story. And as I'm leveling up and doing all the quests, I keep thinking, "How can anyone take the empire seriously?"
Playing as a Light-sided Sith Warrior you can see how the Empire took over half the Galaxy.

Playing as a Dark-sided Sith Warrior you do begin to wonder how anyone in the Empire can survive to be old enough to breed.

I think the problem is their "Dark-side" is more "Raaaagh kill!!!!111" than a Darth Sidious or Darth Vader calculated self-interest (they might blow up a planet, but they do it for a specific goal not just for "fun").

However it's arguably worse as a DS Jedi, because that just comes across like a sulking 3 year old much of the time.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

RixoFutu's Avatar


RixoFutu
12.17.2012 , 03:56 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Laris_Rai View Post
despite their best efforts, the Empire just wasn't ready to take the whole of the Republic.
Wrong. Revan got into Emperors mind and made him to make this deal with Republic. Otherwise Emperor would destroy and conquer whole republic in that time.
"Once, I thought myself a monster. I played in rivers of blood and laughed as innocents quaked. Yet when I touched the Dread Masters, I saw that my darkness was but a shadow of true depravity."

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
12.17.2012 , 04:10 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by HammersteinSW View Post
Empire...lol.

All they have is a crappy small city on a jungle planet, which would blow up if they don't keep a 24/7 watch on their lightning spires. Plus they can't go anywhere since major portions of their own planet are now controlled by rebelling slaves, a rogue Sith lord, an invading mercenary army and a bunch of angry Mandalorians.

I wonder how they can ever get something done, when they can't even control their homeworld ?!
republic.. lol

Sith operating on Coruscant itself (not to mention the whole jedi temple destruction), you cannot turn around without hitting a corrupt senator and/or their lackey. as someone summed up - republic planetary stories (and some of the personal ones as well) in a nutshell are basically players cleaning up the messes that republic itself created. its a wonder, they can resist empire at all, considering how disorganized, corrupt, sanctimonious, self righteous and ineffectual they are. while I enjoy playing through stories on both sides, what little illusion I had left about republic being the side that should or will prevail - died on Belsavis. at the core, republic is just another side of the same coin.

Kleryk's Avatar


Kleryk
12.17.2012 , 04:20 AM | #14
I disagree with your point.

Of course if you go Dark Side all the way just for the DS points, then obviously you'll end up with some cheesy dialogues. But how about rolling a new character just for the storyline and playing it with actual choices? Turn off showing alignment gain, pick options with 1-2-3 buttons, immerse yourself in the story.

What I encourage players to do is doing side quests, PvP and flashpoints and then going through all class quests on the planet in one streak uninterrupted by side grind quests. If you do that, and if you pay attention to the cutscenes and dialogues, you'll see how awesome they can be.

For example - Sith Warrior(Mara/Jugg) dark side storyline on Alderaan. It was brilliant! Overall Alderaan shows the magnitude of the Empire and it's ways of dealing with planets they want to conquer by other means than just battling the republic.

What you seem to fail to see is the imperial structure. It's far more complex than just "strong push weak around". It's the whole philosophy. It's ruled by a Sith. Hell, one of the greatest Sith in Star Wars universe. He's almost almighty! And he gave special rights to the other Sith. Now imagine a caste of priests or nobles having absolute control over the military. Do not forget about the Dark Side corruption that runs through their brains and, well, their immense powers.

You say that you find Empire hilarious because of the sometimes tedious, overdone evil attitudes. I say that Republic sucks and in my opinion it should fall. And that's because my main is a Trooper whose storyline puts more focus on the Republic itself rather than personal plots. Let's see how it looks on every planet:

Corrupt / incompetent / weak governor / leader;
Understaffed crew / starving garrison / ragtag bunch of rebels;
Occasionally a corrupt senator/politician that undermines whole operation for his own gain;
Empire / mercenaries / pirates / gangs giving them hard time and rendering them helpless.

While the Sith Empire, from Republic Trooper perspective, looks like this: strong, well trained military with high funds on high-tech toys and advanced weaponry, led by VERY competent commanders that crush all that stands in their way. AND those ****** commanders, unlike most governors/senators/other local leaders on republic settlements/planets actually answer to unified leadership of the Council and the Emperor which gives them strength of quick decisions and careful planning on their end.

Troopers defect from the Republic because they don't like the indecisive leadership, arguing senate that can't agree on even most basic things and lack of support from their commanders(Ord Mantell trooper storyline). And almost all the people who defect from the Empire are spineless weaklings who can't stand the pression and violence that will lead to the war(Black Talon pretty much).

Now let's sum up average Sith activity on most planets:
Strong leader acting as the harbinger of Emperor's will / ambitious Sith;
All the means necessary to win the war;
Constant communication with the Council / Darth that oversees the whole campaign;
Republic pretending it's not supporting the rebels or the force it deployed, ready to be crushed.

Long story short:
Republic - "oh my God, the Empire/bad guys are tearing us apart, sir, please, help us! We can't do it on our own!"
Empire - "My lord, we have located the Republic / Rebel / Resistance / Pirate / Mercenary base and we're ready to slaughter them. Will you do the honors and spearhead the whole operation?"

And, last thing, beware, mild spoiler from Trooper storyline:

Once you break The Gauntlet, you get a holocall(or was it a conversation in person?) from the command that the Empire launched an all-out offensive and is tearing the Republic forces on all fronts. It even managed to besiege Corellia which is pretty much next to the Republic capital planet and it is helpless!

Empire would do just fine without the Agent or Sith Warrior. Republic would fall apart if it wasn't for the Havoc Squad saving everyone's asses and winning their battles for them.

So yeah, it's the Republic that is silly and can't be taken seriously. It's like a dying empire that crumbles from it's own incompetence, too weak to support itself, let alone stand against the Empire.
At least I have chicken.

CrazyOldMystic's Avatar


CrazyOldMystic
12.17.2012 , 04:43 AM | #15
Op the one thing I enjoyed about the empire story is it was about the war, and it was about bringing the end to the republic. I was not there to kill a few creatures here and a few creatures there. I was not there to play diplomat. I was also not there to play science boy. Thats what I enjoyed about it most, and the sith story just was pure epic.

This being said I have studied military strategies and tactics as a hobby. Biowares story line is a failure in this regard. No general, no leader abandons a clear advantage, unless they are completely incompetent. Let me put it in other terms. The sith were hitting the republic everywhere they could in the last war, and they were beating the republic up pretty good. Maybe not making allot of headway, but they defiantly were getting to the republic, both by morale and by military means. Then the sith empire comes out of no where and sacks the capital world of the republic. Destroying a large portion of the Jedi order. It does not take a genius to see the rippling effects. If you were a trooper in the trenches barely hanging on, and then you receive word that the sith just sacked the capital world of the republic, I think the last thing you would want to do is stick around. It was the perfect time to destroy the republic, and the Empire did not need to have overwhelming force to do so. Bioware decided however to go a incorrect route and make it seem as both sides fought to a stalemate, its pretty clear by their own lore this was no where near the case.

So when I played the empire, yea I took it seriously. I would have to admit that having to watch the sith squander advantages did not make much sense to me for a military society. Military societies are not known for throwing away military advantages. For some odd reason you got lightside points for removing corruption from the imperial military, didn't make much sense. Or for that matter you got lightside points for helping out the Imperial military. So I wont deny that it could use some tweaking.

Lastly the games got bigger problems.

Burana's Avatar


Burana
12.17.2012 , 05:29 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by HammersteinSW View Post
Empire...lol.

All they have is a crappy small city on a jungle planet, which would blow up if they don't keep a 24/7 watch on their lightning spires. Plus they can't go anywhere since major portions of their own planet are now controlled by rebelling slaves, a rogue Sith lord, an invading mercenary army and a bunch of angry Mandalorians.

I wonder how they can ever get something done, when they can't even control their homeworld ?!
Republic is just the same, with squabbling planetary governments threatening to leave the Republic, under-supplied army which has to contract mercenaries with rich criminal records and doubtful loyalties, and the capital city underworld controlled by gangster clans.

To make real life parallels. Every state that has nuclear bombs is taken seriously, independently of their economical and political situation and stability. And actually, the less stable they are, the more seriously they should be taken. As a threat to the stability and prosperity of the rest of the world. So, be the Empire stable and prosperous, why would they need to threaten nearby worlds? Those worlds would seek membership in the Empire themselves...
I think that the storylines on the Empire side make perfect sense to describe the conflict and the atmosphere.

TormentedBunny's Avatar


TormentedBunny
12.17.2012 , 06:07 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by CrazyOldMystic View Post
Military societies are not known for throwing away military advantages.
The Sith Empire is not a true military society. It's not rational, the very basis of the Sith Code is irrationality - passion doesn't usually lead to clear rational choices. It's leadership has no interest in the good of the empire, they are only concerned with their own personal long term struggles for power.

The Empire's reasons for signing the Treaty of Coruscant have nothing to do with military advantages or disadvantages but the insane whims of their emperor. The slave revolts on Dromund Kaas aren't due to a lack of power or control, but are a direct manipulation by some Sith to undermine other Sith.

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
12.17.2012 , 06:21 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Marak View Post
I have finished 6/8 of the class stories.

I would rank them thusly:
IA > SW > Smuggler > SI > JK > JC.
.
I feel almost exactly the opposite regarding the Jedi Consular and Imperial Agent. The Agent story is completely absurd and proves the OP's point. I don't believe the Sith Empire could conquer anything. All three Acts, the Empire characters are following these mostly myopic and personal stories while the Republic is kicking their butts off planet after planet.

The only major world they manage to capture after Chapter 3 is Taris. They lost Balmorra and Corellia, no matter which sides' stories you're playing (Republic Balmorra is after the Empire victory in their version). And losing the weapons factories and the shipyards means they've effectively lost the war. However, as I said, I don't believe this society could have ever achieved much of anything.

One example, failure and the Empire's response to it. We know that failure and struggle are absolutely essential to long-term success. If you always succeed at everything you never learn from any mistakes. The Empire executes anyone who makes a mistake and can't finish a mission. That's so cartoonishly silly that I have a hard time understanding how anyone takes that side seriously.
HARBINGER-60s
Alana, Myschal, Vodoun, Alan

Geryboy's Avatar


Geryboy
12.17.2012 , 06:36 AM | #19
Now I don't know how much you know about human history and societies in the past. But that military -survival of the fittest -regime isn't that far fetched from what happened some time ago / still happening. If you look at foreign politics how can you take todays clowns seriously?
Twinsnake Guardian / Payne Assassin / Cornhoolio OPerative ///// Jar'kai Sword

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
12.17.2012 , 06:38 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Kleryk View Post
Now let's sum up average Sith activity on most planets:
Strong leader acting as the harbinger of Emperor's will / ambitious Sith;
All the means necessary to win the war;
Constant communication with the Council / Darth that oversees the whole campaign;
Republic pretending it's not supporting the rebels or the force it deployed, ready to be crushed.

Long story short:
Republic - "oh my God, the Empire/bad guys are tearing us apart, sir, please, help us! We can't do it on our own!"
Empire - "My lord, we have located the Republic / Rebel / Resistance / Pirate / Mercenary base and we're ready to slaughter them. Will you do the honors and spearhead the whole operation?"
.
I don't think that's true at all:

Spoiler


Both sides stories are presented as you have to save the day.
HARBINGER-60s
Alana, Myschal, Vodoun, Alan