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What is the most usefull tank?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
What is the most usefull tank?

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.13.2012 , 11:04 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Chestnut_Bowl View Post
I've read the statement 'eke out superior performance' many times, but it tell me nothing.
It means that, properly executed, a Shadow will require less healing over the course of a boss fight than a Guardian or VG will. They have stronger CDs on lower CDs which, when leveraged by a skilled player in the appropriate situations, will provide substantially better performance than can be gained by the other tanks' relevant CDs.

Deflection provides 50% additional defense for 12 seconds on a 2 min CD. With 30% base defense, that's a ~71.5% reduction in incoming damage for 12 seconds every 120 seconds (71.5% comparative DR with potential 10% uptime for 7.15% average DR contribution). Resilience provides 100% F/T resistance for 5 seconds every 40-60 seconds (recharge varies based on the fight, equates to 8.33-12.5% DR).

Compare that to what Guardians get with 100% defense for 3 seconds and 50% defense for the remaining 9 seconds on a 3 min CD (w/ 30% base defense, 100% DR for 3 seconds and 71.5% for 9 seconds, equates to 5.24% DR average contribution) and 40% DR for 12 seconds every 180 seconds (it's not actually additive, so it's really only a 2.67% DR average contribution). For F/T, Saber Ward provides 25% DR (once again, a static amount that isn't additive) on the 180 sec CD (equates to 1.67% DR average contribution). Assuming a Guardian uses those CDs on their cooldown (never happens, especially with a 3 minute CD), Guardians get a *slight* edge on M/R attacks (7.91% sum) but are completely blown out of the water on F/T attacks (4.34% compared to 8.33% at worst). VGs only have the single applicable CD and that provides just 25% DR (which is additive, rather than multiplicative) for 12 seconds on a 120 sec CD (w/ 55% K/E DR and 19% I/E DR, that's 55% comparative DR and 31% comparative DR for 5.5% K/E DR and 3.1% I/E DR averaged over time). Properly leveraged, a Shadow can obtain *substantially* better performance out of their CDs than VGs or Guardians can. The only issue is that, unlike the Guardian and VG CDs, their CDs are only effective against specific attacks (whereas the other CDs are useful against all attacks) so you have to know what attacks are coming against you to get the appropriate benefit. In addition, they also require you use them more often, which means watching the CDs more closely.

All of this is also combined with the fact that a Shadow, in a properly weighted averaged incoming damage/attack type calculation (roughly 80/20 M/R:F/T), a Shadow generating the appropriate amount of self heals (~200 hp/sec) is going to have roughly 3-5% lower required external healing than a Guardian or VG.

Shadows, when properly played, simply take less damage (not to mention being the absolute best at threat, both ST and AoE, and damage, both ST and AoE). Properly playing one, however, requires a lot of skill in managing CDs, buff watching, and knowledge of fight mechanics than it does to do the same with a Guardian and especially a VG (if you can't play a VG tank effectively, you've got something wrong with you). Shadows simply have greater potential for survivability than VGs or Guardians do based upon their mechanics and stats.

This isn't to say that a Shadow is *always* the best tank to bring to a fight; there are some fights that will simply rock a Shadow's face (Foreman Crusher, Kephess the Undying, p1 TfB, Trenchcutters in Warlord Kephess). Personally, my favorite loadout is Shadow + Guardian, but I've run enough with Shadow + VG to respect it, especially when it's a K/E F/T fight (/shakefist Kephess the Undying).
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
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todorovh's Avatar


todorovh
12.14.2012 , 05:14 PM | #32
There was this discussion going about stacking hp / not stacking hp .. fact is the hp gain per stat point lost is not worth it. However it has to be said that comparing 8 man to 16 man in recent content ( tfb and ec nim ) you have a bunch of mechanics which hit about 20% harder on 16 man and are NOT mitigated/ avoided by gear .. therefore having a bit more hp is of benefit ( within reason ) ..

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.14.2012 , 05:27 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by todorovh View Post
However it has to be said that comparing 8 man to 16 man in recent content ( tfb and ec nim ) you have a bunch of mechanics which hit about 20% harder on 16 man and are NOT mitigated/ avoided by gear .. therefore having a bit more hp is of benefit ( within reason ) ..
It's actually for this reason that it's generally said that more than 24-25k hp is redundant for 8m and 26-27k for 16m is redundant.
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todorovh's Avatar


todorovh
12.15.2012 , 01:10 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
It's actually for this reason that it's generally said that more than 24-25k hp is redundant for 8m and 26-27k for 16m is redundant.
Is it even possible to stay at 24k hp in DG gear ? Anyway check this video out http://youtu.be/3UugzdjgBkU?t=3m10s .. this noob shadow is running 33k hp for F&S NiM .. at 3.20 he gets down to about 2k hp .. I d argue the additional 4-5k hp saved his life

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.15.2012 , 10:45 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by todorovh View Post
at 3.20 he gets down to about 2k hp .. I d argue the additional 4-5k hp saved his life
I'd argue that the healer did.

Anyway, tanking SC is about the only time were HP stacking *IS* better than mitigation stacking since mitigation does nothing against him.
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Pubsam's Avatar


Pubsam
12.16.2012 , 02:24 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by cities View Post
I'm a PT tank, the talk of PT being "easy-mode" is getting so obnoxious. Be happy with the class you play because you play it, instead of nerding out on not being another class.

My BH was my first character and I rolled it, like many others, without any idea or knowledge of advanced classes or what is what end-game.
They're just jealous of PT animations!

OP, if you want to have a jet pack, a flamethrower, and punch things, roll a PT (VGs... sorry but no). Honestly, this is the reason I tank on a PT. There's plenty of pride to take in being a good tank in regards to positioning and responsiveness, there's no shame in playing the 'simple' class. Even if there were, I look so much cooler than an Assassin or Jugg when tanking, while still be perfectly viable, I'll give them this victory as a consolation prize.

Mandatory disclaimer: there is no accounting for taste. I'm sure SOME of you legitimately prefer the flavor of your Jedi/Sith :P

Also, go team mitigation.
Time for a nap.

haksilence's Avatar


haksilence
12.19.2012 , 07:26 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
VGs are not "sponge tanks", nor do they even *want* to stack HP whatsoever. In fact, they get the least out of hp stacking compared to the other tanks because they get the least benefit from it (thanks to having only a single especially mediocre self-heal as the only ability that has *anything* to do with their HP), not to mention having the least *need* for it because they have the most stable incoming damage profile (thanks to high shield/abs and high passive DR). Shadows get some benefit from HP stacking because a majority of their self healing is based on percentage of max hp and Guardians get more out of Enure with higher hp, but, honestly, no tank should ever *want* to stack their hp whatsoever. Mitigation is king, hands down.
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haksilence's Avatar


haksilence
12.19.2012 , 07:29 AM | #38
shadow tank
40.25% DR
33.33% def chance
66%shield chance
61% absorbtion

w/ dread guard healing relic

i know my gear isnt "itemized" per say but the higher defense ive found to being more practical because it makes deflection into a more viable OH **** button.

Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
12.22.2012 , 06:43 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by todorovh View Post
Is it even possible to stay at 24k hp in DG gear ? Anyway check this video out http://youtu.be/3UugzdjgBkU?t=3m10s .. this noob shadow is running 33k hp for F&S NiM .. at 3.20 he gets down to about 2k hp .. I d argue the additional 4-5k hp saved his life
33k seems a bit extreme for shadow but it doesn't make him a "noob". Everyone will have their own choices in gearing up, and I always disagreed on self-righteous statements with fancy numbers in sterile conditions about how there can be one and only way for each class to gear up. If that tank is doing, F&S -- which is a difficult fight for a Shadow considering Stormcaller's damage potential btw, I think he's already quite good to complete all the content.
Ephesia, Level 55 Jedi Guardian
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Taleek's Avatar


Taleek
12.22.2012 , 03:50 PM | #40
What Kitru says is pretty damn solid, though Vanguard isn't QUITE that simple, I will freely admit it is the most simple tank (since it is), the one other thing you need to think about as a Vanguard more so than the other tanks (at least, in my experience) is positioning enemies.

The reason for this is that the Vanguard relies heavily on their AoE attacks for their threat, while they can usually hold threat with a basic rotation on a single target, holding the aggro of multiple enemies requires more work. You need to learn how to position enemies so you can deal the maxmium possible amount of damage to the largest number of them with your AoEs, and how best to use your other abilities to maximize their effectiveness: I.E. You leap into combat with 3 enemies, then pull a fourth with your grapple, then use the 2 free explosive surges you get from leap, then use your aoe stun to keep them still long enough to use one or more of your AoE attacks. The Vanguard AoE taunt is also different, unlike the other two tanks it is a targeted ranged attack, radiating out from the target. This is both good and bad, good because it allows you to respond more quickly to distant groups of enemies, but bad because you can't drop it right in the middle of a group of enemies if they are spread out.

Other than that, you pretty much just spam stock strike, ion pulse, and hammer shot, and use HiB and Energy Blast when they are available, like Kitru said.
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