Jump to content

Pay2Win Space Missions ???


Dirtyshadow

Recommended Posts

There's virtually no grind in this game for PvE gear and PvP gear grind up to war is also fairly fast(now that top end pvp gear is only very marginally better than war hero its practically the same as having end game pvp gear).

 

I can't speak to PVP, but I have three level 50 toons, and I find earning creds to get higher end items to be pretty grindy, that's why I like the idea of having a variety of options for obtaining things, but its certainly a matter of individual taste as to what constitutes a grind, so I will not say you are wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 921
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I can't speak to PVP, but I have three level 50 toons, and I find earning creds to get higher end items to be pretty grindy, that's why I like the idea of having a variety of options for obtaining things, but its certainly a matter of individual taste as to what constitutes a grind, so I will not say you are wrong.

 

Credit grinding is a grind yes, but that's not how the game is designed to deliver PvE gear. Operations give gobs of loot(unlike the older models where raids had to be done dozens of times to get rare drops). Its pretty much a skill/teamwork check rather than a grind for gear. After a guild is able to beat it, they can usually get most of their gear if not all, within 3-4 runs, which actually adds up to a very small amount of play time, and very little repetition.

 

PvP grind was bad until 1.6 actually, because of the wide gap between the "acquired in 1 week PvP gear" and "acquired in 2-3 months PvP gear". Now that the gap has been practically eliminated its very ungrindy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Negative. The "grind" is part of the game. That is in the design of ALL MMORPGs. The grind IS the game. Let me repeat. THE GRIND IS THE GAME. The entire construct of a MMORPG is a variable reward SKINNER BOX. Another example of this is a "slot machine". What you are saying is that instead of continuing to put in the coins and pull the lever ( e.g. the grind ) one should just put in one coin, pull the lever once, and win everything. That is not playing the game as intended. That in another word is CHEATING.

 

If I pay a sub and play the game as intended within the features I am given for paying the price of the subscription, I am not a hypocrit. If you want to begiven everything for NO EFFORT you are being entitled. Remember in a world where everyone is special, noone is. In a world were everything is handed out for free and no work, there is no creativity, or reason to do anything. Mediocrity is the "spice of the day" and the world becomes bland. I want my world and my games to be challenging and painted with bold colors. Not be fed soma. :cool:

 

I agree with you that these games are supposed to be a grind and that is how I play them, I am not interested in buying any gear from the cartel store, never bothered about my appearance that much in game anyway.

 

The game now has multiple ways to play not just a subscription so playing as a F2P person is also playing as intended, as is someone playing as a preferred player.

 

With all of these options people can buy from the cartel shop.

 

Now F2P has the greatest grind, followed by preferred then a subscriber. If a person states that their opinion of pay to win (Goretzu for example) is that it is anything that circumvents grinding, then as a subscriber they support P2W because they are paying to reduce the grind, have an easier life or whatever you want to call it, then that is hypocrisy. The definition as you stated does not make you a hypocrite and Dpsmw never said that you were.

 

I'm afraid your slot machine analagy went over my head as it makes no sense to me, maybe others can 'get it' because it has nothing to do with what I said. I have no grouse I am only pointing out that you are trying to argue against something that is demonstratably true, and struggling to do so coherantly. I can only assume you misread the initial post and thought that you were being called a hypocrit, which you were not once you stated what your definition of P2W is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just canceled my sub because of Damion Schubert's comment that the cartel market would become a viable way to get gear. I am hopeful that Joveth will come back to clarify his statement. If/when Bioware clarifies this statement to my satisfaction, I will happily resubscribe.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well as it turns out i have worked out what dpwms means now and he is indeed correct but the whole game because you can use real money to buy items and then sell them on the GTN is P2W. Yup you heard me the whole game and subs because of their $15 , preferred because they have spent at least $5 and even F2P players who buy anything off the GTN ( everything is now diluted by the P2W real money that has been pumped into the market ).

 

Everyone is now within the P2W domain on this game.

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other."

 

 

Ehm Bioware you do know that this is till PAY TO WIN RIGHT??? If you can simply BUY the gear from the market then it is PAY TO WIN. If I can buy a PVP set or a PVE endgame set then it is pay to win.

Not having pay to win means that the only thing you have in market is fluff like orange costumes, certain mounts and some unlocks but nothing that will affect your gameplay in a way that it gives you and advantage.

 

If I could buy a thing that made my champion a little faster or stronger in Riots shop even if it could be obtainable some other way would be Pay To Win.

 

Being able to spend money on the piloting unlock is ok for me because money has such low value in TOR, xp boost are ooooook also.... I'm 50/50 with those.

Yes I know it's very limited time yadda yadda but still. The inheritence gear is the thing that should help you level but that was just scraped it seems.

 

However in the future I think you EAware have to try to figure out what direction to go with the market because the only reason star ship upgrades is not P2W is because there is no competitive scene with the space missions but you are crossing a veeeeeeeeryyyy fine line with that.

Edited by redsovereign
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well as it turns out i have worked out what dpwms means now and he is indeed correct but the whole game because you can use real money to buy items and then sell them on the GTN is P2W. Yup you heard me the whole game and subs because of their $15 , preferred because they have spent at least $5 and even F2P players who buy anything off the GTN ( everything is now diluted by the P2W real money that has been pumped into the market ).

 

Everyone is now within the P2W domain on this game.

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

 

However it's saved because TOR never had a "real market" nothing in TOR has any real value. Sure you can spend some money to get a rare white crystal or purple but it doesnt give u any benefit since there is easier obtainable version that sure have not the same color but give you the same stats.

Tor never since launch had anything that really was something you "had to spend money on" most of the stuf was just funny to have like crystals or a rare mount , stuf like that.

 

A lot of other MMORPGs actually have a YOU MUST get a gathering skill to compete at the market or you will have no money that will help you leveling and endgame. How many that played since launch takes anything else then slicing as their professions on alts?

 

Huge flaw in the design of the economy why in god name would you pick up anything else then slicing? Slicing gives you money directly without costing anything since u always go + on your missions. You don't have to invest to create anything with slicing its just free money into your mcdonalds bill. Sure you can take up other stuf if you think its funny playing around with them but they are all quite useless. You dont need biochem to level, sure its nice but the reusable packs costs literarry nothing from the GTN:

 

Slicing = President.

 

I think the biggest problem right now is as ppl increase to put things from the market on the GTN these things will become value-less, quantity and demand.

 

So ye something for Bioware to think about.

Edited by redsovereign
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi everyone,

 

I've spoken to the design team about the issue of Grade 7 ship upgrades and the cost in game (resources and time) versus the cost on the Cartel Market, since this concern was raised by a number of people on our forums.

 

Our Lead Designer for the game, Damion Schubert, has this to say:

 

Unfortunately, there is, in fact, a great disparity between these two costs. We want to apologize for this, as there was a miscommunication internally on how valuable these upgrades were, how challenging they should be to earn, and how fast a player should be able to earn them.

 

We are currently looking at solutions that cause the least amount of frustration for all players affected, while keeping the integrity of both the Cartel Market and the game intact.

 

It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other.

 

We truly hope you enjoy the challenge of the new Heroic Space Missions and apologize again for what we hope is a small distraction.

 

I want to reiterate that we are actively looking at solutions and they will be communicated to you as soon as we have a solid plan.

 

Thank you for your patience.

 

It would appear that the desire of the developers would be that this we be several weeks worth of work to get all the gear components necessary to fully tech out your ship, therefore keeping people engaged in the process and feel the import of each component as it was received, as well as enabling them to do more then the one or two missions as they got the better gear, further enabling them ability to not only finish missions but to complete all the bonus missions as well.

 

It would appear that the marketing department felt that this was a better idea to let people go outside in the afternoon, mow a lawn, and then spend that cash to be able to do all the new ship dailies immediately without having to learn much.

 

Do you have any ideas how you are going to rectify this gap? I don't think there is any fixing to be done except handing the gear out cheaper for those that don't want to pay to win, which only invalidates the whole point of the clear design that was put into this new feature.

 

It's a real shame, but I'll go the purest route and not waste cash ruining the game with a shortcut. I'm sure most won't. If nothing else it insures that EA gets it's money, although the content will get old that much faster, and then you'll have the children who spent real money to win crying because it's too easy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other." - Damion Schubert

 

Whether intentional or not this statement is huge. It suggests that the Cartel Market will be just as effective/efficient as playing the game to earn gear. So while this doesn't necessarily mean pay-to-win (BiS items only in the cartel market) it definitely means you can expect to be just as competitive as those who do not purchase from the cartel market. This could be seen as a major loss for those who have played prior to the launch of Free-to-Play. Many people have spent a lot of time earning their gear and for the game to offer the equivalent through the cartel market would be an invitation for havoc.

Edited by Tordos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other." - Damion Shubert

 

Whether intentional or not this statement is huge. It suggests that the Cartel Market will be just as effective/efficient as playing the game to earn gear. So while this doesn't necessarily mean pay-to-win (BiS items only in the cartel market) it definitely means you can expect to be just as competitive as those who do not purchase from the cartel market. This could be seen as a major loss for those who have played prior to the launch of Free-to-Play. Many people have spent a lot of time earning their gear and for the game to offer the equivalent through the cartel market would be an invitation for havoc.

 

I agree. A lot of people are completely over looking what this statement actually means, or they are looking at it like it means BW is going to change their current course of action for the better.

 

What this statement ACTUALLY means is: "end game gear is going to be on the Cartel Market, but it will cost so much that it makes you think twice before actually buying it." Basically, playing the game and CM will BOTH be viable ways of gearing out your toon, one should not be better than the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other." - Damion Shubert

 

Whether intentional or not this statement is huge. It suggests that the Cartel Market will be just as effective/efficient as playing the game to earn gear. So while this doesn't necessarily mean pay-to-win (BiS items only in the cartel market) it definitely means you can expect to be just as competitive as those who do not purchase from the cartel market. This could be seen as a major loss for those who have played prior to the launch of Free-to-Play. Many people have spent a lot of time earning their gear and for the game to offer the equivalent through the cartel market would be an invitation for havoc.

 

I've been subbed since day one and I welcome this with open arms. I've done the grind through Everquest, Wow, to here. Done all end game content and quite frankly I'm pretty sick of mindless grinding. I play a game to play, not to have to do mindless, repetitive grinding for two months before I can do so. To me that is the very definition of insanity, and not something I'm interested in paying to do. I'd rather take a few minutes of my workday and use that revenue to just buy the grind gear and be off and playing.

 

Others enjoy grinding. I can respect that....but not for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been subbed since day one and I welcome this with open arms. I've done the grind through Everquest, Wow, to here. Done all end game content and quite frankly I'm pretty sick of mindless grinding. I play a game to play, not to have to do mindless, repetitive grinding for two months before I can do so. To me that is the very definition of insanity, and not something I'm interested in paying to do. I'd rather take a few minutes of my workday and use that revenue to just buy the grind gear and be off and playing.

 

Others enjoy grinding. I can respect that....but not for me.

 

Just curious, but what's the point of playing after you've bought the best, and then maybe done the end game content once through?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pay to win is a way of jumping ahead in game progression or gaining a significant game advantage by spending real money, instead of game money or time playing. And the grade 7 ship parts most definitely fulfill the first definition. The fact that you CAN earn, craft, or buy them with game currency doesn't change that, and if they weren't obtainable in any in-game way then they would fit the second definition of p2w since they would be BETTER than anything that was otherwise obtainable.

 

That being said, they don't bother me much, space missions are only a mini-game, and even the enhanced rewards of the heroic space missions (when they work) don't qualify as a significant game advantage in the main game progression, in my opinion.

 

What DOES bother me is something that hasn't gotten nearly as much notice for some reason. And that's the +41 crystals that are usable by low level characters and ONLY available from the cartel market. That most definitely fits the second definition for p2w and while leveling isn't endgame, in this game leveling is probably the bigger part of the game. Certainly it's the part they put the most effort into.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been subbed since day one and I welcome this with open arms. I've done the grind through Everquest, Wow, to here. Done all end game content and quite frankly I'm pretty sick of mindless grinding. I play a game to play, not to have to do mindless, repetitive grinding for two months before I can do so. To me that is the very definition of insanity, and not something I'm interested in paying to do. I'd rather take a few minutes of my workday and use that revenue to just buy the grind gear and be off and playing.

 

Others enjoy grinding. I can respect that....but not for me.

 

Some people call it earning your gear, others call it a mindless grind. Some people play for the journey, others do not. Some call it fun, others call it insanity. Whatever motivates you I guess.

 

... What DOES bother me is something that hasn't gotten nearly as much notice for some reason. And that's the +41 crystals that are usable by low level characters and ONLY available from the cartel market. That most definitely fits the second definition for p2w and while leveling isn't endgame, in this game leveling is probably the bigger part of the game. Certainly it's the part they put the most effort into.

 

You're right. A lot of people overlook the little changes, especially if they are already at end-game. Those who are leveling characters now can definitely gain an advantage through the cartel market with the unlocks, the crystal, etc.

Edited by Tordos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just curious, but what's the point of playing after you've bought the best, and then maybe done the end game content once through?

 

You are employing mind projection fallacy. I can't answer that from your perspective, only my own.

 

Firs is that I enjoy all the space missions and when I'm playing a character I do them every night. They are fun to me (yes, I'm a bit crazy). Second reasons is that unless you are a 12 year old jacked up on Cheetos and Jolt, you cannot earn gear by doing the new missions, you must have the gear in order to do them.

 

Its similar to my philosophy on raiding. I was a raid leader and raid tank. Long after I had geared up through a level of content I would still go back and do it over and over to gear others in our guild. I did that because my goal in these games is not carrot chasing, not gearing up for the sake of gearing but having fun with friends completing content. No one in our guild ever had gear envy issues and quite often would pass on top end gear so that others could get some. Different philosophy is all and CCs afford me the opportunity to play my way.

Edited by Blackardin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some people call it earning your gear, others call it a mindless grind. Some people play for the journey, others do not. Some call it fun, others call it insanity. Whatever motivates you I guess.

 

Absolutely. My intent was not to berate those that enjoy grinding or earning. If that is fun for them then that's great. I won't contest different philosophies, just hope that I'm allowed to enjoy the game as I please.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been subbed since day one and I welcome this with open arms. I've done the grind through Everquest, Wow, to here. Done all end game content and quite frankly I'm pretty sick of mindless grinding. I play a game to play, not to have to do mindless, repetitive grinding for two months before I can do so. To me that is the very definition of insanity, and not something I'm interested in paying to do. I'd rather take a few minutes of my workday and use that revenue to just buy the grind gear and be off and playing.

 

Others enjoy grinding. I can respect that....but not for me.

 

You will quickly find yourself with a lot fewer people to play with, though to be honest, I am not sure what the point of continuing to play would even be if you already had the gear.

 

You say you have played MMOs for so long...have you ever stopped to think that maybe they aren't the type of game you are looking for?

 

I have canceled my sub due to Schubert's statement. I will resub if Bioware clarifies their intent, and if that intent is NO PAY TO WIN.

Edited by Icebergy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolutely. My intent was not to berate those that enjoy grinding or earning. If that is fun for them then that's great. I won't contest different philosophies, just hope that I'm allowed to enjoy the game as I please.

 

The problem with this is that the way you want to "enjoy the game" (I used quotes here because one, I think you are flat out wrong, you would not enjoy it, and two you would not be playing it, you would just be paying it) completely destroys the way myself and the majority of others want to play it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with this is that the way you want to "enjoy the game" (I used quotes here because one, I think you are flat out wrong, you would not enjoy it, and two you would not be playing it, you would just be paying it) completely destroys the way myself and the majority of others want to play it.

 

So your wants trump his wants. Are you King Icebergy of Icebergland or something? Stop thinking that you are more important than him and really tell us why it is so important that someone can get the same gear to occasionally run content with friends? How does this affect you, apart from not being a special snowflake in your pixel gear?

 

You want to earn your gear, I get that and you can be proud that you did. As long as BW don't put gear in the CS that is better than your gear what is the problem to you?

Edited by mothear
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So your wants trump his wants. Are you King Icebergy of Icebergland or something? Stop thinking that you are more important than him and really tell us why it is so important that someone can get the same gear to occasionally run content with friends? How does this affect you, apart from not being a special snowflake in your pixel gear?

 

You want to earn your gear, I get that and you can be proud that you did. As long as BW don't put gear in the CS that is better than your gear what is the problem to you?

 

The answer to these questions were well covered in the last 798 posts. I will however, field your last one, although it has been explained several times already:

 

The T7 gear in the CS is in fact, better than anyone's T5/T6 gear from before the patch. <--- PROBLEM!

 

An extreme minority of players are sitting on 2000 fleet comms, 500 daily comms, 300,000 credits, and is a cybertech who could even use the schematics along with the $2 million credits worth of mats required to craft what is being bought & sold in the CS for 9 usd worth of cartel coins.

 

The additional fears that this will spread to endgame PVE & PVP gear are pure speculation at this point, but valid nonetheless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been subbed since day one and I welcome this with open arms. I've done the grind through Everquest, Wow, to here. Done all end game content and quite frankly I'm pretty sick of mindless grinding. I play a game to play, not to have to do mindless, repetitive grinding for two months before I can do so. To me that is the very definition of insanity, and not something I'm interested in paying to do. I'd rather take a few minutes of my workday and use that revenue to just buy the grind gear and be off and playing.

 

Others enjoy grinding. I can respect that....but not for me.

 

then why play a WoW based mmo?? whether people like it or not, the mmo parts of this game (ops, warzones, FPs, etc) are WoWesque.. its fine if you dont want to play the grind, but thats what this game is from an MMO perspective.

and taking away that part of the game only segregates those who pay for their gear from those that dont... and personally, when it comes to gear, you should earn it by actually playing the game. otherwise.. whats the point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins

You cheapened the integrity of the market once you started putting top tier gear (of any kind) for sale on the Cartel Market.

 

That is the fundamental problem here. If you guys want to start selling more top-tier gear on the Market... and I don't care what the cost is... if you want to sell ANY top-tier gear on the Market on a go-forward basis, just come out and say it so that I can unsub because that isn't the MMO I signed up for.

 

I must echo this sentiment.

 

I've been playing daily (with the exception of 1.6) since launch. I'm legacy 50 and have 77 days /played on my main alone. I've been renewing my 6-month sub since launch. Before launch I did podcasts, blogged, and talked about SWTOR for years with guild mates awaiting it's release.

 

At no time did the developers EVER indicate best-in-slot gear of any sort would be ever available on the cartel market. Put raid or PVP gear on there and I'll pass leadership of my guild off and unsubcribe / uninstall. What has been done is already too far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...