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Pay2Win Space Missions ???


Dirtyshadow

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By the definition of the term "Win" it would not by your own admission. One is not winning anything as you so point out. Therefore the term P2W cannot be applied because there is nothing to "win".:p Therefore you will have to come up with a new term that can be applied to cases like this.

 

Regardless, as I said in the previous post. If you want to help to contribute to the debate by attempting to find common ground and not just play the battle of semantics, then I welcome your input. Otherwise, have a great day!:)

 

BJ

 

The term in my mind is "Pay2GearUp", not P2W, although both terms tend to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

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Here's the real point I thought was interesting and keeping in the spirit of Thelrage's post several pages ago. It indeed does matter what any game company does - they have the ultimate control. As several of use mentioned a few pages back, the direction the industry is taking is clearly more towards the F2P or Freemium route because the numbers prove that this has become a lucrative business model. Businesses are in the business to make money, therefore they will choose the path that gives them the best margin of profit.

 

If indeed the process of selling top tier gear in a cash shop pans out and provides enough of a profit to sustain a game, then why wouldn't the company take this route? We can debate the merits of doing so all we want, but if the numbers show that this is a sustainable model, then it's one the industry should take because it will be the one that keeps the industry funded and therefore able to continue to create new products. We can apply whatever term we want to it, we can hate it all we want, but just like the commercialization of Christmas, if it keeps a company in business, then it must be done, and should be done.

 

They would, this is why P2W once introduced (as it had been) will inevitable expand to destroy the game.

 

But you're confusing a game making a company money with a game in any way being worth playing, any game that makes money (especially in the short term) doesn't mean it is a health or good game, it just means it is making money for the game company.

 

Look at WAR dead in a development sense for more than 2 years now, but still making a profit. Does that make it a good game? No.

 

 

 

OK, just one more time because the real reason I am responding is below.

 

It my be ludicrous in your opinion, but that doesn't mean the facts do not bear it out. By definition of each word in the term P2W - you must pay money to win something correct? If you are not winning something in game, then how can any term with "win" in the use or definition be applied??:confused:

Again, this is by your own admission - you said we are not winning anything, therefore how can P2W be the correct term to apply to the condition. You need to create or find a new term that applies to the circumstances that occur. This is not my interpretation of the term, but the actual accepted definition of the word "Win" which I presumed from your comments that you agree with.

 

 

When your postion has selling top level PvP as "not P2W", it is a position so ludicrous that it is simply not possible to have any debate. And anything you have to say on this become therefore pretty meaningless.

 

Fair enough you believe that selling top level PvP would not be P2W (under the terms of your very specific defination), that is up to you.

 

However you'd find yourself in a very small minortiy of people (probably of 1) agreeing that selling top level PvP gear "was not P2W".

Edited by Goretzu
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Not if it doesn't allow you to win.:eek:

 

We already have many people complaining that they still cannot successfully complete the new space missions even with a full set of Tier 7 gear, so how is it P2W when people are failing left and right? (sorry Jacen).

 

TBH, I have already agreed not to debate the definition of P2W. I understand your view on the term and you have every right to feel that way. I don't have a problem with it - I just happen not to agree with it. However, that still does not solve the problem of reaching a median that most of us can live with in game. If you cannot contribute to that point and at least try to make this a better thread and SWTOR a better game, then there's no further point debating with you.

 

BJ

 

In that case, I would like them to release full Dread Guard set on the Cartel Market because just having the gear does not automatically allow us to win in such instances as Hard Mode Terror From Beyond, Nightmare Explosive Conflict, etc.

 

Also I would like them to release full War Hero set on the Cartel Market too, because just having a team geared in full War Hero does not mean we will win a warzone.

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Semantics over the wording aside:

 

When posters on this forum use the phrase Pay-To-Win (P2W) they are referring to the purchase of in-game gear via real money. This purchase invalidates numerous hours of game-play (whether it be Space Missions now, or Dailies and Operations later) and instead allows an individual to attain high-level gear with zero in-game effort.

 

That is P2W.

 

Stop beating the Strawman to death already.

 

 

 

Bioware has introduced two things into the Cash Shop:

1) The ability to purchase End-Game Content Gear

2) An "Event" (Life Day) that now costs real-world money to participate in

 

I see a problem.

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Semantics over the wording aside:

 

When posters on this forum use the phrase Pay-To-Win (P2W) they are referring to the purchase of in-game gear via real money. This purchase invalidates numerous hours of game-play (whether it be Space Missions now, or Dailies and Operations later) and instead allows an individual to attain high-level gear with zero in-game effort.

 

That is P2W.

 

Stop beating the Strawman to death already.

 

 

 

Bioware has introduced two things into the Cash Shop:

1) The ability to purchase End-Game Content Gear

2) An "Event" (Life Day) that now costs real-world money to participate in

 

I see a problem.

 

I don't mind the second thing, cosmetic stuff isn't bad. I am considering buying the Outrider's jacket with some of my complimentary coins myself, and then just moving the mods over.

 

The first thing I very much have a problem with.

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/facepalm, have any of you actually tried the mission? its bloody hard! im sure people will do it once or twice and then stop cause like all the other space missions it gets boring fast, i really loose faith in humanity sometimes when ppl here are whinging about BH comms and gearing for pve faster, its PvE how hard is it to kil scripted mobs? you could do all the Content with augmented rakata.
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you can find it any where so yes i can find it, on a blog, on wikipedia, in the dictionary.

 

Play to win is when you can again and yes ive read the post, you can buy something that is in one way or another not avalible to others in the game beside buying the item with real world money, It also has to affect another player, WGICH IN A SINGLE PLAYER PORTION OF A GAME IT DOES NOT. the only way you can even argue it may be play to win is the BH coms you get from the weekly, which surprise you can get these also from other sources in the game. So no its not a P2W and is not baseless, anyone else care to argue and be shutdown?

 

 

Can you link the one you mention in the dictionary? I really would like to read that one.

 

Wikipedia is edited by anyone and everyone. And a blog is TOTALLY ONE PERSON'S OPINION PIECE.

 

EDIT: People who think everything on the internet is true, is the blonde in this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmx4twCK3_I

Edited by Jacen_Starsolo
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Personally i dont really have a problem with it and here is why.

 

I think this is the last update of space combat in this form so i feel they just want everyone to be able to get to the last few missions as soon as possible.

 

You can get the gear in the gtn or grinding daily and fleet comms so if you like space combat enough there are other ways to get it

 

 

Space combat is a single player minigame and its gear doesnt affect any multiplayer playability. I can appreciate the opinion how some people think this is how it starts. Unless I start seeing op gear in the cartel market im not going to lose any sleep over it.

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Semantics over the wording aside:

Finally!

 

Oh wait.. what's this?

When posters on this forum use the phrase Pay-To-Win (P2W) they are referring to the purchase of in-game gear via real money. This purchase invalidates numerous hours of game-play (whether it be Space Missions now, or Dailies and Operations later) and instead allows an individual to attain high-level gear with zero in-game effort.

 

That is P2W.

But but.. you just said you'd put semantics over wording aside..

 

W-why did you then start to immediately talk about the semantics of the wording according to you and a group you claim to talk for namely "posters on this forum".

 

FYI, the meaning (or semantics ;) ) of the word "Semantics" according to the dictionary in the spoiler below.

 

se·man·tics [si-man-tiks] Show IPA

noun, ( used with a singular verb )

1. Linguistics .

a. the study of meaning.

b. the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form.

2. Also called significs. the branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they denote.

3. the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.

 

 

FYI, I do not agree with your suggested meaning of P2W. So let's really stop discussing the semantics now.. alright?

Edited by Devlonir
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By the definition of the term "Win" it would not by your own admission. One is not winning anything as you so point out. Therefore the term P2W cannot be applied because there is nothing to "win".:p Therefore you will have to come up with a new term that can be applied to cases like this.

 

Regardless, as I said in the previous post. If you want to help to contribute to the debate by attempting to find common ground and not just play the battle of semantics, then I welcome your input. Otherwise, have a great day!:)

 

BJ

 

I have posted this before but since is lost many pages ago, I will go ahead and restated.

 

The phrase "Pay to Win" has not official definition. It is a derogatory term whose meaning is in flux and operative in game forums, blogs much like this one. We have agreed ( pages back) that there is no official source one can cite as an authority defining what P2W means. If you have an unarguable source, please provide.

 

Without such basis, the only think we have are semantics and base logic, of which, here are my 2 cents.

 

Winning and Loosing are fundamental opposites intrinsic to any game. This is true regardless of whether a game is play solo or in a group setting, against or with other players. One can win or loose a game of solitaire yes?

 

So the question is what is the win/loose factor in a MMO. Well, as in other games, the win/loose factor is usually determined by the goal/objective. You WIN the game if you can meet the objective(s). In a MMO the objectives are changing evolving goals we tend to comprise under the word Progression. Progressively gaining levels, getting gear, killing bosses, gaining PvP ranks, etc.

 

Thus in a broad sense, Winning on a MMO is gaining progression. Hence, purchasing items with real money(PAY) that enhance/hasten this Progression ( WIN) is Pay to Win.

 

Under this strict logic, even buying the XP booster packs would be considered P2W; it is. The difference is that since for many (subjective aspect) of us the leveling progress does not constitute true progression, we may not feel this is strictly P2W... but on a technical basis it is (objective).

 

So this leave us with the questions... are space missions progression based ? The answer is simple: they are. It is possible that the majority of players don't do them with progression in mind, but this mini-game is build with a lot of gear progression and mission difficulty as you advance levels and, specially with 1.6 new missions, at end game.

 

Again, the subjective view would argue that this does not represent core progression (HM fps, operation bosses, PvP ranks, titles, unlocks, etc. ) but that is irrelevant for the purpose of establishing objective arguments.

 

To sum up, 1.5 and 1.6 have brought P2W to SWTOR. There is a gray are of subjectivity on what constitutes true progression (WIN), but that is on the realm of personal opinion.

 

I am not advocating for or against the Cartel market. I see potential good and bad down the road. There are too many unknowns and there are limits to which I personally would subscribe to when/if the game becomes too reliant on it. What I do not agree with is that we are still talking about what P2W is or is not.

Edited by TheIrage
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So this leave us with the questions... are space missions progression based ? The answer is simple: they are. It is possible that the majority of players don't do them with progression in mind, but this mini-game is build with a lot of gear progression and mission difficulty as you advance levels and, specially with 1.6 new missions, at end game.

 

Nope I gotta disagree here. If they were progression based, they would have been tuned to T6 gear and rewarded T7 gear. They aren't. Purposeful gear gap built in there. The horse pulls the cart, not the other way around...

 

Try to sell it however you want, but most don't agree with this assessment.

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It seriously sucks that they have put those P2W items in the cartel Shop, This is indeed a new low for BW.

 

P2W items is something that I will not sponsor and that will make me quit the game if it keeps up.

 

The community have been very clear about this, so BW, stop this crap.

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Its not BIoware, its EA. I remember spending weeks unlocking the barret sniper rifle in bfbc2 and then to my dismay EA put an unlock token on the Playstation store. For less than the price of a Big Mac you could unlock the best guns in the game for whatever class you liked, or for all of the classes if you felt like it. And lets not forget how they stick those "online passes" into games to try and knickel and dime ppl who would dare buy a used copy of one of their games at GameStop.

 

EA doesn't care, if they think it will get them money they do it.

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*sigh*

 

What percentage of people complaining that the space gear is P2W have actually beaten all the new space missions? 'Cause I know I can't. Some of those missions are HARD (though I'm handicapped by the fact that I run SWTOR windowed in a multi-monitor setup. That means it's not uncommon for me to accidentally click on another monitor, only for my ship to then fly into an asteroid... I really should start turning off windowed mode for space missions....). I think I tried 4 of 'em and beat maybe 1. One mission I was blown away so quick that I just stopped doing the space missions altogether for a while....

 

 

To reignite the semantic debate: Isn't it P2W only if they put out a tier of gear which is only available for $$$? If there was a new ultra-top-tier of PvP gear which was only available on the Cartel Market.... THAT would be P2W, because it puts non-paying players at a disadvantage that no amount of work grinding or luck with drops with ever compensate for.

 

With the space missions, however, you can buy every one of the items on the GTN for amounts that a lot of the "grinding is part of the game, and I like it" people have sitting around in their accounts anyway.

 

It's those of us who HATE grinding (and are therefore usually poor in game) who will buy it from the Cartel. I LOVE this, frankly. I'd love it if they let me buy campaign or dread guard gear for my newer 50's, cause otherwise I'm not gonna do very much with them until we have new story content (there's no way I'm gonna do the end-game gear grind with more than one toon. The very idea just bores me to tears. Those of you who space through the dialogue so you can get to the end-game gear grind faster, grind away. Just count me out.). Be nice, however, to pay a bit of money so that I can try out tanking in a new op (my best-geared toon is DPS).

 

What I'd always reject, however, would be if they introduced a new tier that's slightly better than dread guard and made it Cartel-only. The kids who can barely afford their subscriptions but who do all their ops on multiple toons every week should always have the ability to have the top gear. I just never liked that this also means that old-fogeys like me with kids and work often end up not seeing the content that we payed for (heck, my guild in WoW sucked so bad that I never did a single Raid. Not one. I paid for all those big, plot-ending bosses in various expansions and I saw none of them. Scheduling was always too difficult, and our guild too small to compensate for this. So forgive me if I'm pretty skeptical when the guys who beat the raids/ops the week they came out and then complained about how there was "nothing to do" act like giving the rest of us a chance to see some content without an uber-grind is unfair. 'Cause for some of us, that's the only way we're gonna see it...)

 

My preference would actually be for the game to always have slightly better gear available for the grinders than for the payers, as long as the gear that you can buy is good enough to make making it through content at least feasible (for ops, meaning that you can at least do story mode, but Hard or Nightmare might be impossible). Even more ideal might be to give the paid-for gear a different game or something, so hardcore ops folks know that you didn't "earn" it; that just 'cause you have campaign you're still a noob.

 

*shrug*

 

All I know for sure is that I REALLY like how the Cartel market has made it easier for me to focus on lowbie alts without having to switch to a 50 every few levels in order to grind Black Hole or whatever for cash to buy speeder training, etc. Having done planets like Alderaan so many times, the ability to just throw a bit of my free coins at the market in order to get lvl 3 speeder training for a lvl 32 toon is pretty great. And I know there's zero chance I would have saved up the money for the rocket boots without them being on the market.... Going through corridors you've done 7 times before a little bit faster for the win.

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What percentage of people complaining that the space gear is P2W have actually beaten all the new space missions? 'Cause I know I can't.

 

This. I've beaten half of them. They're very challenging.

 

It's not pay to win, it's pay to participate, and you don't even need to do that since the items are available elsewhere. This thread is silly.

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As soon as BioWare made end-game commendations a reward for space combat, that should have disqualified the end-game ship parts from being made available in the cash shop.

 

And what's more, that decision should have been a no-brainer. The failure of BioWare to recognize what constitutes "pay to win" is disappointing. Hopefully, they learn from this experience.

 

-Macheath.

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And what's more, that decision should have been a no-brainer. The failure of BioWare to recognize what constitutes "pay to win" is disappointing. Hopefully, they learn from this experience.

 

You must have missed my last post. Here it is again:

 

This. I've beaten half of them. They're very challenging.

 

It's not pay to win, it's pay to participate, and you don't even need to do that since the items are available elsewhere. This thread is silly.

 

It's not pay to win. You can pay and still lose. Also, you can get the items elsewhere. It's not that your claim is false, it's that it's objectively and empirically false.

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Look at this thread…

 

A week ago everyone complained that they were releasing new space missions. Suddenly everyone is mad cause someone can finish/grind the missions faster then they can, even though they hate the space missio. And don play them. Color me confused.

 

And I'm not sure how a single player mini game can be p2w. Why cause you can get 5 BH comms from them? Oh no 5 black hole comms which gets you gear that is 3rd from the best. Amazed.

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Nope I gotta disagree here. If they were progression based, they would have been tuned to T6 gear and rewarded T7 gear. They aren't. Purposeful gear gap built in there. The horse pulls the cart, not the other way around...

 

Try to sell it however you want, but most don't agree with this assessment.

 

Well, not at all. If BW started to sell Dreadguard/EliteWarhero gear wouldn't that be P2W by "most" as you queote? Yes it would be more universally agreed upon. It would enhance/fasten the progression of a player(s)... just as much as T7 is significantly useful to doing all the new content heroics which are the new level of progression introduced on 1.6. ( if not out right required for the average player). The last statement is partly opinion, you may challenge it, but the base stat increase from T6 to T7 is sufficiently large to make me feel is accurate.

 

To your analogy, consider that after every horse race you compete on, you gain attributes that help your performance for the next race ( The MMO progression case), and, just as in the case of gear, the cart you carry is where that performance is built on. Thus, in a somewhat humorous way, yes the cart pulls the horse... you just bought/payed for turbo-engines :)

 

EDIT: Addition

 

Furthermore I would add that the new content tuned to T7 gear ( according your post, your opinion or fact, I can't back that myself) is what bring up even more discontent. Prior to 1.6, the space mini-game had progression; the 1.6 content is progression in terms of the step of difficulty but the one thing that is changed is how you obtain the gear (required or greatly helpful) to reach that progression.

Edited by TheIrage
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Well, not at all. If BW started to sell Dreadguard/EliteWarhero gear wouldn't that be P2W by "most" as you queote? Yes it would be more universally agreed upon. It would enhance/fasten the progression of a player(s)... just as much as T7 is significantly useful to doing all the new content heroics which are the new level of progression introduced on 1.6. ( if not out right required for the average player). The last statement is partly opinion, you may challenge it, but the base stat increase from T6 to T7 is sufficiently large to make me feel is accurate.

 

To your analogy, consider that after every horse race you compete on, you gain attributes that help your performance for the next race ( The MMO progression case), and, just as in the case of gear, the cart you carry is where that performance is built on. Thus, in a somewhat humorous way, yes the cart pulls the horse... you just bought/payed for turbo-engines :)

 

Still not buying into this part of your argument. Note that your other points I agree on so this is not a personal attack.

 

There's a big difference between "significantly useful" and "required".

 

However it's decribed (I don't care to call it P2W either), forcing players to buy gear in advance of playing released content (in the Cartel Store, by grinding, or any other method) by purposely inserting a large gear gap is a perversion on how progression is supposed to work and is wrong ihmo.

 

If allowed to get away with this, EA may very well introduce "Super Duper Cartel Armor" with the Makeb expansion that will be best in game when that releases. Of course, they will make it possible (but prohibitingly painful) to grind for the same way these T7 parts are.

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Hi everyone,

 

I've spoken to the design team about the issue of Grade 7 ship upgrades and the cost in game (resources and time) versus the cost on the Cartel Market, since this concern was raised by a number of people on our forums.

 

Our Lead Designer for the game, Damion Schubert, has this to say:

 

Unfortunately, there is, in fact, a great disparity between these two costs. We want to apologize for this, as there was a miscommunication internally on how valuable these upgrades were, how challenging they should be to earn, and how fast a player should be able to earn them.

 

We are currently looking at solutions that cause the least amount of frustration for all players affected, while keeping the integrity of both the Cartel Market and the game intact.

 

It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other.

 

We truly hope you enjoy the challenge of the new Heroic Space Missions and apologize again for what we hope is a small distraction.

 

I want to reiterate that we are actively looking at solutions and they will be communicated to you as soon as we have a solid plan.

 

Thank you for your patience.

Edited by JovethGonzalez
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Hi everyone,

 

I've spoken to the design team about the issue of Grade 7 ship upgrades and the cost in game (resources and time) versus the cost on the Cartel Market, since this concern was raised by a number of people on our forums.

 

Our Lead Designer for the game, Damion Schubert, has this to say:

 

Unfortunately, there is, in fact, a great disparity between these two costs. We want to apologize for this, as there was a miscommunication internally on how valuable these upgrades were, how challenging they should be to earn, and how fast a player should be able to earn them.

 

We are currently looking at solutions that cause the least amount of frustration for all players affected, while keeping the integrity of both the Cartel Market and the game intact.

 

It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other.

 

We truly hope you enjoy the challenge of the new Heroic Space Missions and apologize again for what we hope is a small distraction.

 

I want to reiterate that we are actively looking at solutions and they will be communicated to you as soon as we have a solid plan.

 

Thank you for your patience.

 

Good to know that 100 threads is enough to get BW's attention. I'll probably hold off on the level 7 space missions until they announce what they're going to do then; perhaps lower comms cost. I like that Bioware noticed the outrage and took it to heart though, a step in the right direction.

 

Now maybe we should start 100 threads on server transfers....

Edited by LegendaryBlade
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