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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

LegendaryBlade's Avatar


LegendaryBlade
12.13.2012 , 07:39 AM | #531
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
Semantics over the wording aside:

When posters on this forum use the phrase Pay-To-Win (P2W) they are referring to the purchase of in-game gear via real money. This purchase invalidates numerous hours of game-play (whether it be Space Missions now, or Dailies and Operations later) and instead allows an individual to attain high-level gear with zero in-game effort.

That is P2W.

Stop beating the Strawman to death already.



Bioware has introduced two things into the Cash Shop:
1) The ability to purchase End-Game Content Gear
2) An "Event" (Life Day) that now costs real-world money to participate in

I see a problem.
I don't mind the second thing, cosmetic stuff isn't bad. I am considering buying the Outrider's jacket with some of my complimentary coins myself, and then just moving the mods over.

The first thing I very much have a problem with.
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darthnish's Avatar


darthnish
12.13.2012 , 08:02 AM | #532
/facepalm, have any of you actually tried the mission? its bloody hard! im sure people will do it once or twice and then stop cause like all the other space missions it gets boring fast, i really loose faith in humanity sometimes when ppl here are whinging about BH comms and gearing for pve faster, its PvE how hard is it to kil scripted mobs? you could do all the Content with augmented rakata.

Jacen_Starsolo's Avatar


Jacen_Starsolo
12.13.2012 , 08:30 AM | #533
Quote: Originally Posted by Bounty_ View Post
you can find it any where so yes i can find it, on a blog, on wikipedia, in the dictionary.

Play to win is when you can again and yes ive read the post, you can buy something that is in one way or another not avalible to others in the game beside buying the item with real world money, It also has to affect another player, WGICH IN A SINGLE PLAYER PORTION OF A GAME IT DOES NOT. the only way you can even argue it may be play to win is the BH coms you get from the weekly, which surprise you can get these also from other sources in the game. So no its not a P2W and is not baseless, anyone else care to argue and be shutdown?

Can you link the one you mention in the dictionary? I really would like to read that one.

Wikipedia is edited by anyone and everyone. And a blog is TOTALLY ONE PERSON'S OPINION PIECE.

EDIT: People who think everything on the internet is true, is the blonde in this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmx4twCK3_I

jorill's Avatar


jorill
12.13.2012 , 08:42 AM | #534
Personally i dont really have a problem with it and here is why.

I think this is the last update of space combat in this form so i feel they just want everyone to be able to get to the last few missions as soon as possible.

You can get the gear in the gtn or grinding daily and fleet comms so if you like space combat enough there are other ways to get it


Space combat is a single player minigame and its gear doesnt affect any multiplayer playability. I can appreciate the opinion how some people think this is how it starts. Unless I start seeing op gear in the cartel market im not going to lose any sleep over it.

Devlonir's Avatar


Devlonir
12.13.2012 , 08:54 AM | #535
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
Semantics over the wording aside:
Finally!

Oh wait.. what's this?
Quote:
When posters on this forum use the phrase Pay-To-Win (P2W) they are referring to the purchase of in-game gear via real money. This purchase invalidates numerous hours of game-play (whether it be Space Missions now, or Dailies and Operations later) and instead allows an individual to attain high-level gear with zero in-game effort.

That is P2W.
But but.. you just said you'd put semantics over wording aside..

W-why did you then start to immediately talk about the semantics of the wording according to you and a group you claim to talk for namely "posters on this forum".

FYI, the meaning (or semantics ) of the word "Semantics" according to the dictionary in the spoiler below.
Spoiler


FYI, I do not agree with your suggested meaning of P2W. So let's really stop discussing the semantics now.. alright?
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TheIrage's Avatar


TheIrage
12.13.2012 , 09:51 AM | #536
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
By the definition of the term "Win" it would not by your own admission. One is not winning anything as you so point out. Therefore the term P2W cannot be applied because there is nothing to "win". Therefore you will have to come up with a new term that can be applied to cases like this.

Regardless, as I said in the previous post. If you want to help to contribute to the debate by attempting to find common ground and not just play the battle of semantics, then I welcome your input. Otherwise, have a great day!

BJ
I have posted this before but since is lost many pages ago, I will go ahead and restated.

The phrase "Pay to Win" has not official definition. It is a derogatory term whose meaning is in flux and operative in game forums, blogs much like this one. We have agreed ( pages back) that there is no official source one can cite as an authority defining what P2W means. If you have an unarguable source, please provide.

Without such basis, the only think we have are semantics and base logic, of which, here are my 2 cents.

Winning and Loosing are fundamental opposites intrinsic to any game. This is true regardless of whether a game is play solo or in a group setting, against or with other players. One can win or loose a game of solitaire yes?

So the question is what is the win/loose factor in a MMO. Well, as in other games, the win/loose factor is usually determined by the goal/objective. You WIN the game if you can meet the objective(s). In a MMO the objectives are changing evolving goals we tend to comprise under the word Progression. Progressively gaining levels, getting gear, killing bosses, gaining PvP ranks, etc.

Thus in a broad sense, Winning on a MMO is gaining progression. Hence, purchasing items with real money(PAY) that enhance/hasten this Progression ( WIN) is Pay to Win.

Under this strict logic, even buying the XP booster packs would be considered P2W; it is. The difference is that since for many (subjective aspect) of us the leveling progress does not constitute true progression, we may not feel this is strictly P2W... but on a technical basis it is (objective).

So this leave us with the questions... are space missions progression based ? The answer is simple: they are. It is possible that the majority of players don't do them with progression in mind, but this mini-game is build with a lot of gear progression and mission difficulty as you advance levels and, specially with 1.6 new missions, at end game.

Again, the subjective view would argue that this does not represent core progression (HM fps, operation bosses, PvP ranks, titles, unlocks, etc. ) but that is irrelevant for the purpose of establishing objective arguments.

To sum up, 1.5 and 1.6 have brought P2W to SWTOR. There is a gray are of subjectivity on what constitutes true progression (WIN), but that is on the realm of personal opinion.

I am not advocating for or against the Cartel market. I see potential good and bad down the road. There are too many unknowns and there are limits to which I personally would subscribe to when/if the game becomes too reliant on it. What I do not agree with is that we are still talking about what P2W is or is not.

DAMossimo's Avatar


DAMossimo
12.13.2012 , 10:08 AM | #537
Quote: Originally Posted by TheIrage View Post
So this leave us with the questions... are space missions progression based ? The answer is simple: they are. It is possible that the majority of players don't do them with progression in mind, but this mini-game is build with a lot of gear progression and mission difficulty as you advance levels and, specially with 1.6 new missions, at end game.
Nope I gotta disagree here. If they were progression based, they would have been tuned to T6 gear and rewarded T7 gear. They aren't. Purposeful gear gap built in there. The horse pulls the cart, not the other way around...

Try to sell it however you want, but most don't agree with this assessment.

Aelrail's Avatar


Aelrail
12.13.2012 , 10:29 AM | #538
It seriously sucks that they have put those P2W items in the cartel Shop, This is indeed a new low for BW.

P2W items is something that I will not sponsor and that will make me quit the game if it keeps up.

The community have been very clear about this, so BW, stop this crap.
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DrewFromPhilly's Avatar


DrewFromPhilly
12.13.2012 , 10:46 AM | #539
Its not BIoware, its EA. I remember spending weeks unlocking the barret sniper rifle in bfbc2 and then to my dismay EA put an unlock token on the Playstation store. For less than the price of a Big Mac you could unlock the best guns in the game for whatever class you liked, or for all of the classes if you felt like it. And lets not forget how they stick those "online passes" into games to try and knickel and dime ppl who would dare buy a used copy of one of their games at GameStop.

EA doesn't care, if they think it will get them money they do it.

Guinnessmonkey's Avatar


Guinnessmonkey
12.13.2012 , 10:59 AM | #540
*sigh*

What percentage of people complaining that the space gear is P2W have actually beaten all the new space missions? 'Cause I know I can't. Some of those missions are HARD (though I'm handicapped by the fact that I run SWTOR windowed in a multi-monitor setup. That means it's not uncommon for me to accidentally click on another monitor, only for my ship to then fly into an asteroid... I really should start turning off windowed mode for space missions....). I think I tried 4 of 'em and beat maybe 1. One mission I was blown away so quick that I just stopped doing the space missions altogether for a while....


To reignite the semantic debate: Isn't it P2W only if they put out a tier of gear which is only available for $$$? If there was a new ultra-top-tier of PvP gear which was only available on the Cartel Market.... THAT would be P2W, because it puts non-paying players at a disadvantage that no amount of work grinding or luck with drops with ever compensate for.

With the space missions, however, you can buy every one of the items on the GTN for amounts that a lot of the "grinding is part of the game, and I like it" people have sitting around in their accounts anyway.

It's those of us who HATE grinding (and are therefore usually poor in game) who will buy it from the Cartel. I LOVE this, frankly. I'd love it if they let me buy campaign or dread guard gear for my newer 50's, cause otherwise I'm not gonna do very much with them until we have new story content (there's no way I'm gonna do the end-game gear grind with more than one toon. The very idea just bores me to tears. Those of you who space through the dialogue so you can get to the end-game gear grind faster, grind away. Just count me out.). Be nice, however, to pay a bit of money so that I can try out tanking in a new op (my best-geared toon is DPS).

What I'd always reject, however, would be if they introduced a new tier that's slightly better than dread guard and made it Cartel-only. The kids who can barely afford their subscriptions but who do all their ops on multiple toons every week should always have the ability to have the top gear. I just never liked that this also means that old-fogeys like me with kids and work often end up not seeing the content that we payed for (heck, my guild in WoW sucked so bad that I never did a single Raid. Not one. I paid for all those big, plot-ending bosses in various expansions and I saw none of them. Scheduling was always too difficult, and our guild too small to compensate for this. So forgive me if I'm pretty skeptical when the guys who beat the raids/ops the week they came out and then complained about how there was "nothing to do" act like giving the rest of us a chance to see some content without an uber-grind is unfair. 'Cause for some of us, that's the only way we're gonna see it...)

My preference would actually be for the game to always have slightly better gear available for the grinders than for the payers, as long as the gear that you can buy is good enough to make making it through content at least feasible (for ops, meaning that you can at least do story mode, but Hard or Nightmare might be impossible). Even more ideal might be to give the paid-for gear a different game or something, so hardcore ops folks know that you didn't "earn" it; that just 'cause you have campaign you're still a noob.

*shrug*

All I know for sure is that I REALLY like how the Cartel market has made it easier for me to focus on lowbie alts without having to switch to a 50 every few levels in order to grind Black Hole or whatever for cash to buy speeder training, etc. Having done planets like Alderaan so many times, the ability to just throw a bit of my free coins at the market in order to get lvl 3 speeder training for a lvl 32 toon is pretty great. And I know there's zero chance I would have saved up the money for the rocket boots without them being on the market.... Going through corridors you've done 7 times before a little bit faster for the win.

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