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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

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BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.13.2012 , 06:39 AM | #521
Quote: Originally Posted by Goretzu View Post
Of course it does, it allows you to completely avoid much of the gameplay that those that don't pay have to go through.


For example what would being able to by top level OP gear allow you to "win"? Nothing, because you'd already be able to buy anything you could get. Therefore that wouldn't be P2W?

Or even being able to buy the top level of PvP gear, again that wouldn't make you "win", it would just allow you to circumvent the grind to collect the best gear. So again therefore that wouldn't be P2W either?
By the definition of the term "Win" it would not by your own admission. One is not winning anything as you so point out. Therefore the term P2W cannot be applied because there is nothing to "win". Therefore you will have to come up with a new term that can be applied to cases like this.

Regardless, as I said in the previous post. If you want to help to contribute to the debate by attempting to find common ground and not just play the battle of semantics, then I welcome your input. Otherwise, have a great day!

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
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Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
12.13.2012 , 06:40 AM | #522
Quote: Originally Posted by Devlonir View Post
If I could buy Rakata/Black Hole now for real money, I would not consider that P2W. This is because it is the 'set behind' what you achieve in the endgame raiding right now and is required to perform that task.
I suspect we'll see just that sooner rather than later, but I disagree, that would be P2W.

Quote:
PVE is not a competitive format with other players, but vs the game. So being able to save the time of grinding to be ready to start attempting to do actual endgame is, to me, merely a time saver.
Indeed, so buy the definations of P2W being used by some, being able to buy top level OP gear wouldn't be P2W either, it would just be "saving you time" in gearing up directly to kill bosses that you already have bought the gear from.

There would be no "harm" in that, so that wouldn't be P2W either.



Quote:
Now, the fun starts. PVP:
If I could buy War Hero now for real money, I am initially leaning to naming that borderline P2W. Let me explain why:
Yes, It is also the set behind the actual end set, but unlike the raiding example, you don't need War Hero to PVP as you already get your 'get ready to PVP' set in Recruit Mk2 for free in game and it is better than what your competitors get.
But again, going back to my general description, it does not give you the end result of PVP (gear wise), so I could consider it not P2W. This has more to do with the current ease of getting full War Hero since 1.6 than anything else. Though I'd prefer War Hero to be the level of the gear you get for free at 50 for PVP balance reasons (another subject).
Important factor for PVP is that the required end result is not only getting the better gear but it is beating the other team each game. While for PVE, after beating it the first time, you continue to play just to fill out your gear with BiS pieces. War Hero gear gives you an edge over non War Hero players in that aspect of constant competition vs other players. So the line for what is P2W is a lot lower in a PVP game aspect (where the smallest edge can make a huge difference).
So to conclude, buying War Hero is what I would consider P2W.. buying Battlemaster in the current situation is something I would consider not P2W because the edge of that compared to Recruit Mk2 is minor as well as the fact that for very little effort in game you'd get better gear in the War Hero pieces. That would basicly be Pay 2 Be Less Bad When I Just Dinged Fifty (P2BLBWIJDF... doesnt have a nice ring now does it? :P )
Honestly if you think selling PvP gear isn't P2W then I think we're just going to have to agree you and I have vastly different ideas of P2W.

Quote:
This I agree with. And that's why I say that for the current Space Game, these items are P2W. And I will not pay Bioware for these items because I feel that is not a good thing to do.
Speaking with my wallet, so to speak.
The problem is that it doesn't matter what you or I do, it matters what Bioware EA does (the company that put a P2W pet into WAR), and as it is already in and the problem already exists.

With the number of people that HAVE bought these mods Bioware EA accounts will deem them a huge "sucess" and so the game will plough on further along this road.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
12.13.2012 , 06:42 AM | #523
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
By the definition of the term "Win" it would not by your own admission. One is not winning anything as you so point out. Therefore the term P2W cannot be applied because there is nothing to "win". Therefore you will have to come up with a new term that can be applied to cases like this.

Regardless, as I said in the previous post. If you want to help to contribute to the debate by attempting to find common ground and not just play the battle of semantics, then I welcome your input. Otherwise, have a great day!

BJ
Yeah which means what I said:

That by your defination of P2W nothing is "P2W"; not selling top level raid gear, not selling top level PvP gear, nothing.


Fair enough, but that's an utterly ludicrous defintion that makes any reasoned debate impossible to have.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

Devlonir's Avatar


Devlonir
12.13.2012 , 06:46 AM | #524
Quote: Originally Posted by Goretzu View Post
I suspect we'll see just that sooner rather than later, but I disagree, that would be P2W.
I also said I understand that for many it would be considered such because that is the gear they are still playing for. Hence me saying that Columni is possibly the better option, if any.
This is also because they already give away Tionese for free in game now (which is similar to my debate concerning Battlemaster gear)


Quote:
Indeed, so buy the definations of P2W being used by some, being able to buy top level OP gear wouldn't be P2W either, it would just be "saving you time" in gearing up directly to kill bosses that you already have bought the gear from.

There would be no "harm" in that, so that wouldn't be P2W either.
Those people I also do not agree with.


Quote:
Honestly if you think selling PvP gear isn't P2W then I think we're just going to have to agree you and I have vastly different ideas of P2W.
As said: I'd only consider Battlemaster not P2W as the win you get from the Recruit Mk2 is minor in stats and the set bonus, that is everything. Also, the other option (ingame grind) gives you both better gear at this time (War Hero) as well as takes little effort.

But only in this specific situation is where I'd be okay with PVP items. Nothing more honestly. Personally, when it comes to PVP. I wish they just gave War Hero for free and let everyone play for Elite War Hero. Much more level playing field then!

Quote:
The problem is that it doesn't matter what you or I do, it matters what Bioware EA does (the company that put a P2W pet into WAR), and as it is already in and the problem already exists.

With the number of people that HAVE bought these mods Bioware EA accounts will deem them a huge "sucess" and so the game will plough on further along this road.
That is a sad and true fact. But that doesn't mean I still won't buy these. I won't be a part of the cause of them deeming it a success.
"Cows go 'Moo', Dogs go 'Woof', MMO Players go 'The PVP is unbalanced!" - Yahthzee
"I'm starting to get the feeling that BW and their MMO are not the dysfunctional ones." - Rafaman

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.13.2012 , 06:53 AM | #525
Quote: Originally Posted by Goretzu View Post
Yeah which means what I said:

That by your defination of P2W nothing is "P2W"; not selling top level raid gear, not selling top level PvP gear, nothing.


Fair enough, but that's an utterly ludicrous defintion that makes any reasoned debate impossible to have.
OK, just one more time because the real reason I am responding is below.

It my be ludicrous in your opinion, but that doesn't mean the facts do not bear it out. By definition of each word in the term P2W - you must pay money to win something correct? If you are not winning something in game, then how can any term with "win" in the use or definition be applied??
Again, this is by your own admission - you said we are not winning anything, therefore how can P2W be the correct term to apply to the condition. You need to create or find a new term that applies to the circumstances that occur. This is not my interpretation of the term, but the actual accepted definition of the word "Win" which I presumed from your comments that you agree with.

Quote: Originally Posted by Goretzu View Post
IThe problem is that it doesn't matter what you or I do, it matters what Bioware EA does (the company that put a P2W pet into WAR), and as it is already in and the problem already exists.

With the number of people that HAVE bought these mods Bioware EA accounts will deem them a huge "sucess" and so the game will plough on further along this road.
Here's the real point I thought was interesting and keeping in the spirit of Thelrage's post several pages ago. It indeed does matter what any game company does - they have the ultimate control. As several of use mentioned a few pages back, the direction the industry is taking is clearly more towards the F2P or Freemium route because the numbers prove that this has become a lucrative business model. Businesses are in the business to make money, therefore they will choose the path that gives them the best margin of profit.

If indeed the process of selling top tier gear in a cash shop pans out and provides enough of a profit to sustain a game, then why wouldn't the company take this route? We can debate the merits of doing so all we want, but if the numbers show that this is a sustainable model, then it's one the industry should take because it will be the one that keeps the industry funded and therefore able to continue to create new products. We can apply whatever term we want to it, we can hate it all we want, but just like the commercialization of Christmas, if it keeps a company in business, then it must be done, and should be done.

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

DAMossimo's Avatar


DAMossimo
12.13.2012 , 06:58 AM | #526
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
By the definition of the term "Win" it would not by your own admission. One is not winning anything as you so point out. Therefore the term P2W cannot be applied because there is nothing to "win". Therefore you will have to come up with a new term that can be applied to cases like this.

Regardless, as I said in the previous post. If you want to help to contribute to the debate by attempting to find common ground and not just play the battle of semantics, then I welcome your input. Otherwise, have a great day!

BJ
The term in my mind is "Pay2GearUp", not P2W, although both terms tend to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
12.13.2012 , 07:25 AM | #527
Quote:
Here's the real point I thought was interesting and keeping in the spirit of Thelrage's post several pages ago. It indeed does matter what any game company does - they have the ultimate control. As several of use mentioned a few pages back, the direction the industry is taking is clearly more towards the F2P or Freemium route because the numbers prove that this has become a lucrative business model. Businesses are in the business to make money, therefore they will choose the path that gives them the best margin of profit.

If indeed the process of selling top tier gear in a cash shop pans out and provides enough of a profit to sustain a game, then why wouldn't the company take this route? We can debate the merits of doing so all we want, but if the numbers show that this is a sustainable model, then it's one the industry should take because it will be the one that keeps the industry funded and therefore able to continue to create new products. We can apply whatever term we want to it, we can hate it all we want, but just like the commercialization of Christmas, if it keeps a company in business, then it must be done, and should be done.
They would, this is why P2W once introduced (as it had been) will inevitable expand to destroy the game.

But you're confusing a game making a company money with a game in any way being worth playing, any game that makes money (especially in the short term) doesn't mean it is a health or good game, it just means it is making money for the game company.

Look at WAR dead in a development sense for more than 2 years now, but still making a profit. Does that make it a good game? No.



Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
OK, just one more time because the real reason I am responding is below.

It my be ludicrous in your opinion, but that doesn't mean the facts do not bear it out. By definition of each word in the term P2W - you must pay money to win something correct? If you are not winning something in game, then how can any term with "win" in the use or definition be applied??
Again, this is by your own admission - you said we are not winning anything, therefore how can P2W be the correct term to apply to the condition. You need to create or find a new term that applies to the circumstances that occur. This is not my interpretation of the term, but the actual accepted definition of the word "Win" which I presumed from your comments that you agree with.

When your postion has selling top level PvP as "not P2W", it is a position so ludicrous that it is simply not possible to have any debate. And anything you have to say on this become therefore pretty meaningless.

Fair enough you believe that selling top level PvP would not be P2W (under the terms of your very specific defination), that is up to you.

However you'd find yourself in a very small minortiy of people (probably of 1) agreeing that selling top level PvP gear "was not P2W".
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

deanth's Avatar


deanth
12.13.2012 , 07:26 AM | #528
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Not if it doesn't allow you to win.

We already have many people complaining that they still cannot successfully complete the new space missions even with a full set of Tier 7 gear, so how is it P2W when people are failing left and right? (sorry Jacen).

TBH, I have already agreed not to debate the definition of P2W. I understand your view on the term and you have every right to feel that way. I don't have a problem with it - I just happen not to agree with it. However, that still does not solve the problem of reaching a median that most of us can live with in game. If you cannot contribute to that point and at least try to make this a better thread and SWTOR a better game, then there's no further point debating with you.

BJ
In that case, I would like them to release full Dread Guard set on the Cartel Market because just having the gear does not automatically allow us to win in such instances as Hard Mode Terror From Beyond, Nightmare Explosive Conflict, etc.

Also I would like them to release full War Hero set on the Cartel Market too, because just having a team geared in full War Hero does not mean we will win a warzone.

LegendaryBlade's Avatar


LegendaryBlade
12.13.2012 , 07:27 AM | #529
I like how some people have boiled down to arguing over terminology and semantics. How about this.

Whatever you want to call it, it's bad.
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-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
12.13.2012 , 07:34 AM | #530
Semantics over the wording aside:

When posters on this forum use the phrase Pay-To-Win (P2W) they are referring to the purchase of in-game gear via real money. This purchase invalidates numerous hours of game-play (whether it be Space Missions now, or Dailies and Operations later) and instead allows an individual to attain high-level gear with zero in-game effort.

That is P2W.

Stop beating the Strawman to death already.



Bioware has introduced two things into the Cash Shop:
1) The ability to purchase End-Game Content Gear
2) An "Event" (Life Day) that now costs real-world money to participate in

I see a problem.