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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Prettyevilish's Avatar


Prettyevilish
12.13.2012 , 04:14 AM | #511
Quote: Originally Posted by DAMossimo View Post
This is my worry too. Imagine:

Makeb = free to subscribers

Special Crystal that allows you to survive for more than 30 seconds on Makebs surface = 1200 Cartel Coins.
Makeb free? You're just having high hopes with that, aren't you?

Clearly it'll be paying 500 CC for Makeb (not bad, just a month's worth of free comms for a sub), and THEN 1200 CC to survive on the planet's surface... and you have to buy a new one every month.

Prettyevilish's Avatar


Prettyevilish
12.13.2012 , 04:19 AM | #512
Quote: Originally Posted by Bounty_ View Post
you can find it any where so yes i can find it, on a blog, on wikipedia, in the dictionary.

Play to win is when you can again and yes ive read the post, you can buy something that is in one way or another not avalible to others in the game beside buying the item with real world money, It also has to affect another player, WGICH IN A SINGLE PLAYER PORTION OF A GAME IT DOES NOT. the only way you can even argue it may be play to win is the BH coms you get from the weekly, which surprise you can get these also from other sources in the game. So no its not a P2W and is not baseless, anyone else care to argue and be shutdown?
Where'd you get this definition? I don't recall Webster's ever defining pay to win. Last I saw MMO players have always debated that definition, so take your OPINION of the definition and stop trying to hawk it as fact.

As such, there is no concrete definition of it, which means you cannot PROVE anyone is wrong if their definition is that it allows someone to gain an advantage over other players (and being able to buy the items, rather than grinding them out IS an advantage, especially since the grind is so obscenely expensive it's a thinly veiled way to force you to buy them).

Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
12.13.2012 , 04:24 AM | #513
Quote: Originally Posted by Vlacke View Post
This thread is full of BS and some here clearly have no idea what p2w means, because this is certainly not that.
Resident trolls aside, i'm amazed by some people's inability to think clearly with their own heads.
Yup it's absolutely astounding how many people will pretend P2W isn't what it is.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

Devlonir's Avatar


Devlonir
12.13.2012 , 04:33 AM | #514
Quote: Originally Posted by Goretzu View Post
Yup it's absolutely astounding how many people will pretend P2W isn't what it is.
I still don't agree with your definition of it though ;-)

As I recall from all your posts concerning it. you feel paying to speed things up is already P2W, I do not.

As you may remember, my definition is basicly: P2W in a vertical progression game like TOR is basicly being able to buy the end reward of current max level endgame of a specific aspect of the game through money alone.

Currently: I feel for the Space Game (and only the Space Game) it means that this is P2W. For every other aspect, this game does not have any P2W aspects. Especially those that claim that buying grade 7 stuff allows you to get more Fleet Comms and Black Hole Comms more easilly and it is therefore Pay 2 Win surprise me so much.. This game already had more ways than most players have time to spend to get these materials. So really.. how does skipping 1 grind for the slight ease of another (because the missions are still hard with Grade 7 stuff) make it Pay2Win?
"Cows go 'Moo', Dogs go 'Woof', MMO Players go 'The PVP is unbalanced!" - Yahthzee
"I'm starting to get the feeling that BW and their MMO are not the dysfunctional ones." - Rafaman

Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
12.13.2012 , 04:35 AM | #515
Quote: Originally Posted by Devlonir View Post
I still don't agree with your definition of it though ;-)

As I recall from all your posts concerning it. you feel paying to speed things up is already P2W, I do not.

As you may remember, my definition is basicly: P2W in a vertical progression game like TOR is basicly being able to buy the end reward of current max level endgame of a specific aspect of the game through money alone.

Currently: I feel for the Space Game (and only the Space Game) it means that this is P2W. For every other aspect, this game does not have any P2W aspects. Especially those that claim that buying grade 7 stuff allows you to get more Fleet Comms and Black Hole Comms more easilly and it is therefore Pay 2 Win surprise me so much.. This game already had more ways than most players have time to spend to get these materials. So really.. how does skipping 1 grind for the slight ease of another (because the missions are still hard with Grade 7 stuff) make it Pay2Win?

So if you could buy HM Flashpoint gear or low level OP gear what would you call it? (although in fairness this stuff is TOP level so it's basically top level OP gear to be a fair comparrison)

All that does is speed up your rate of gear progression, so that wouldn't be P2W either?


Quote:
As you may remember, my definition is basicly: P2W in a vertical progression game like TOR is basicly being able to buy the end reward of current max level endgame of a specific aspect of the game through money alone.
These mods are the "end game" gear of the space game, there is nothing higher you can get, they also then help you with the ground game.

It exactly the same as being allowed to buy OP gear......... and I suspect Bioware EA know this, and this is a test for how well P2W flies (both in a customer PR sense and a $$$'s sense). If this does well (and it seems it is) expect to see more P2W in more areas of the game.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.13.2012 , 05:35 AM | #516
Quote: Originally Posted by iamthehoyden View Post
Look, I get what you're saying, I really do. I'm just saying that I see end-game gear as a reward. If people can buy it instead of earning it, it means less to me.
And what I am trying to do is figure out a way to either get around that problem or at the very least make it less enough of an issue so it's not as off-putting. In order to do that, we need to dig down into the underlying reasons why players feel the way they do and get them to actually think about it and think outside the box on how to fix it. We see far too many times people just spout off rhetoric without actually thinking about what they are saying and trying to find a solution to the problem. For many I have noticed that if you actually make them think about what they are saying, it ends up not being a problem for them at all - they just followed the Lemmings off the cliff without even using their own mind to think whether it was a good idea or not.

In a lot of games I have played in the past there are things that I did not like, but upon looking at the bigger picture realized that they were good for the game because they were good for a portion of the playerbase. I may not have enjoyed that particular thing about the game, but I realized without it my overall joy of the game probably would be a lot worse because the lack of it would have affected many more players than just myself. So I learned to deal with it and as a result, found over time that it wasn't such a big deal after all, and my overall enjoyment of the game was not impacted.

Quote: Originally Posted by notalkjustrock View Post
It's clearly not balanced without CM content. If there was no CM they would have either made level 6 missions, instead of jumping form level 5 to level 7, or made it easier to get the level 7 stuff. If they are going to implement an unbalanced, unfun grind in an attempt to extract fees from me for content I have already paid for then I am going elsewhere.

If I went to a movie theatre and bought a ticket at the box office, but then when I went to theatre the usher told me that there was a seat fee, I would not go to that movie theatre again. That's what I'm doing. I guess you'd be the guy who points out that I could just stand for the entire movie.
How about this instead - getting a petition together and asking for the missions to be rebalanced so they are not as OPed as they appear to be right now.

Quote: Originally Posted by Prettyevilish View Post
Where'd you get this definition? I don't recall Webster's ever defining pay to win. Last I saw MMO players have always debated that definition, so take your OPINION of the definition and stop trying to hawk it as fact.

As such, there is no concrete definition of it, which means you cannot PROVE anyone is wrong if their definition is that it allows someone to gain an advantage over other players (and being able to buy the items, rather than grinding them out IS an advantage, especially since the grind is so obscenely expensive it's a thinly veiled way to force you to buy them).
Absolutely. It's a shame that more people don't actually read the previous posts in a thread (at the very least read skim through the last half dozen pages to get some idea where the current topic of conversation has lead and the ideas that have been bantered back and forth). Several of us have already agreed that debating the actual definition of P2W is pointless, even if there was an official definition of the term. We would still disagree regardless. Therefore, we are now in the process of actually trying to find a solution to the problem of how to include P4C items without making them overtly feel like they are a P2W item. I have asked several questions (starting around page 48) in posts on previous pages trying to establish the mindsets of what makes players feel the way they do on both sides. Once we can establish that, we can actually work on establishing where the common ground lies.

MarkoJinn ReviveR stated ideas in their posts around page 44 or 45 that I think bears some merit, and were ones that I also have had in the back of my mind - color-coding equipment so that one can differentiate those who did the "work" in game as opposed to the "work" in real life to get the money to buy the gear. Also to simply lockout the gear until the player has completed all content with one character on their account (similar to how GW locked out Hard Mode in the original game).

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
12.13.2012 , 06:20 AM | #517
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
And what I am trying to do is figure out a way to either get around that problem or at the very least make it less enough of an issue so it's not as off-putting. In order to do that, we need to dig down into the underlying reasons why players feel the way they do and get them to actually think about it and think outside the box on how to fix it. We see far too many times people just spout off rhetoric without actually thinking about what they are saying and trying to find a solution to the problem. For many I have noticed that if you actually make them think about what they are saying, it ends up not being a problem for them at all - they just followed the Lemmings off the cliff without even using their own mind to think whether it was a good idea or not.

In a lot of games I have played in the past there are things that I did not like, but upon looking at the bigger picture realized that they were good for the game because they were good for a portion of the playerbase. I may not have enjoyed that particular thing about the game, but I realized without it my overall joy of the game probably would be a lot worse because the lack of it would have affected many more players than just myself. So I learned to deal with it and as a result, found over time that it wasn't such a big deal after all, and my overall enjoyment of the game was not impacted.



How about this instead - getting a petition together and asking for the missions to be rebalanced so they are not as OPed as they appear to be right now.



Absolutely. It's a shame that more people don't actually read the previous posts in a thread (at the very least read skim through the last half dozen pages to get some idea where the current topic of conversation has lead and the ideas that have been bantered back and forth). Several of us have already agreed that debating the actual definition of P2W is pointless, even if there was an official definition of the term. We would still disagree regardless. Therefore, we are now in the process of actually trying to find a solution to the problem of how to include P4C items without making them overtly feel like they are a P2W item. I have asked several questions (starting around page 48) in posts on previous pages trying to establish the mindsets of what makes players feel the way they do on both sides. Once we can establish that, we can actually work on establishing where the common ground lies.

MarkoJinn ReviveR stated ideas in their posts around page 44 or 45 that I think bears some merit, and were ones that I also have had in the back of my mind - color-coding equipment so that one can differentiate those who did the "work" in game as opposed to the "work" in real life to get the money to buy the gear. Also to simply lockout the gear until the player has completed all content with one character on their account (similar to how GW locked out Hard Mode in the original game).

BJ
If being able to directly buy gear that aids you and allows you to avoid grind isn't P2W then nothing ever has been or ever will be P2W; it is that simples.
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.13.2012 , 06:26 AM | #518
Quote: Originally Posted by Goretzu View Post
If being able to directly buy gear that aids you and allows you to avoid grind isn't P2W then nothing ever has been or ever will be P2W; it is that simples.
Not if it doesn't allow you to win.

We already have many people complaining that they still cannot successfully complete the new space missions even with a full set of Tier 7 gear, so how is it P2W when people are failing left and right? (sorry Jacen).

TBH, I have already agreed not to debate the definition of P2W. I understand your view on the term and you have every right to feel that way. I don't have a problem with it - I just happen not to agree with it. However, that still does not solve the problem of reaching a median that most of us can live with in game. If you cannot contribute to that point and at least try to make this a better thread and SWTOR a better game, then there's no further point debating with you.

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

Devlonir's Avatar


Devlonir
12.13.2012 , 06:30 AM | #519
Quote: Originally Posted by Goretzu View Post
So if you could buy HM Flashpoint gear or low level OP gear what would you call it? (although in fairness this stuff is TOP level so it's basically top level OP gear to be a fair comparrison)

All that does is speed up your rate of gear progression, so that wouldn't be P2W either?
If I could buy Rakata/Black Hole now for real money, I would not consider that P2W. This is because it is the 'set behind' what you achieve in the endgame raiding right now and is required to perform that task. All that buying that gear does is save me the time of gearing a character to be ready to do this endgame content. PVE is not a competitive format with other players, but vs the game. So being able to save the time of grinding to be ready to start attempting to do actual endgame is, to me, merely a time saver.
But, I also see how for people who are not 'full on endgame' but more the '1 step behind' raiding crew (which is always multiple times bigger than the full on endgame crew) it could be considered P2W as it means people can buy the gear they are still grinding for.
I guess.. in conclusion and the current game situation.. I would consider buying Columni (2 tiers behind) not P2W.

Now, the fun starts. PVP:
If I could buy War Hero now for real money, I am initially leaning to naming that borderline P2W. Let me explain why:
Yes, It is also the set behind the actual end set, but unlike the raiding example, you don't need War Hero to PVP as you already get your 'get ready to PVP' set in Recruit Mk2 for free in game and it is better than what your competitors get.
But again, going back to my general description, it does not give you the end result of PVP (gear wise), so I could consider it not P2W. This has more to do with the current ease of getting full War Hero since 1.6 than anything else. Though I'd prefer War Hero to be the level of the gear you get for free at 50 for PVP balance reasons (another subject).
Important factor for PVP is that the required end result is not only getting the better gear but it is beating the other team each game. While for PVE, after beating it the first time, you continue to play just to fill out your gear with BiS pieces. War Hero gear gives you an edge over non War Hero players in that aspect of constant competition vs other players. So the line for what is P2W is a lot lower in a PVP game aspect (where the smallest edge can make a huge difference).
So to conclude, buying War Hero is what I would consider P2W.. buying Battlemaster in the current situation is something I would consider not P2W because the edge of that compared to Recruit Mk2 is minor as well as the fact that for very little effort in game you'd get better gear in the War Hero pieces. That would basicly be Pay 2 Be Less Bad When I Just Dinged Fifty (P2BLBWIJDF... doesnt have a nice ring now does it? :P )

Quote:
These mods are the "end game" gear of the space game, there is nothing higher you can get, they also then help you with the ground game.
This I agree with. And that's why I say that for the current Space Game, these items are P2W. And I will not pay Bioware for these items because I feel that is not a good thing to do.
Speaking with my wallet, so to speak.
"Cows go 'Moo', Dogs go 'Woof', MMO Players go 'The PVP is unbalanced!" - Yahthzee
"I'm starting to get the feeling that BW and their MMO are not the dysfunctional ones." - Rafaman

Goretzu's Avatar


Goretzu
12.13.2012 , 06:33 AM | #520
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Not if it doesn't allow you to win.

We already have many people complaining that they still cannot successfully complete the new space missions even with a full set of Tier 7 gear, so how is it P2W when people are failing left and right? (sorry Jacen).

TBH, I have already agreed not to debate the definition of P2W. I understand your view on the term and you have every right to feel that way. I don't have a problem with it - I just happen not to agree with it. However, that still does not solve the problem of reaching a median that most of us can live with in game. If you cannot contribute to that point and at least try to make this a better thread and SWTOR a better game, then there's no further point debating with you.

BJ
Of course it does, it allows you to completely avoid much of the gameplay that those that don't pay have to go through.


For example what would being able to by top level OP gear allow you to "win"? Nothing, because you'd already be able to buy anything you could get. Therefore that wouldn't be P2W?

Or even being able to buy the top level of PvP gear, again that wouldn't make you "win", it would just allow you to circumvent the grind to collect the best gear. So again therefore that wouldn't be P2W either?
Real Star Wars space combat please, not Star Wars Fox! Maybe some PvP and flight too?
Goretzu's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving "Entitled" approaches 1