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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

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Jacen_Starsolo's Avatar


Jacen_Starsolo
12.12.2012 , 01:51 PM | #441
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroOneNine View Post
You actually have to be able to win for it to be pay-to-win. As it stands now, it's more of a pay-to-hate-space-missions-with-a-buring-passion.
LOL. I said before in the thread it might be more P2F for Pay 2 Fail. I kind of wished I didn't say that though because of the earlier convo about if this was P2W or not. Luckily, nobody thought to use that against me.

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.12.2012 , 01:52 PM | #442
Quote: Originally Posted by Jacen_Starsolo View Post
LOL. I said before in the thread it might be more P2F for Pay 2 Fail. I kind of wished I didn't say that though because of the earlier convo about if this was P2W or not. Luckily, nobody thought to use that against me.
I thought about it - but let it slide.

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

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RaithHarth's Avatar


RaithHarth
12.12.2012 , 02:11 PM | #443
I'm still finding the new space missions difficult even with the new space gear
Don't start the Revolution without me

The artist formally known as Rath, now they call me Sydow!

MarkoJinn's Avatar


MarkoJinn
12.12.2012 , 02:43 PM | #444
To me this is not about these space missions in specific but the direction that Bioware seems to be taking. The game world, FOR ME, is a place where I should have the exact same chance at success as everyone else who plays it. Now obviously those who invest more time would reach the end goal faster than those who don't. That part is OK.

However creating "shortcuts" to achieve end game goals whatever they might be is not OK. First of all it defeats the purpose of the entire game. I mean it would be like if you started a single player at the very last boss in the game with best gear and everything. Defeat the boss... game over.

Second and more important, it kills any notion of achievement for those who actually did the grind to acquire this gear. At the very least Bioware should color code these items differently so if there is someone who acquired an armor set by grinding he/she and the others like him/her should be the only people that have say green version of that armor. All versions of the armor bought on cartel shop are some other color. Even better the cartel item should be slightly worse than the one acquired in the game. NOTHING in the cartel should be "best in game" items.
What if he doesn't survive? He's worth a lot to me.

ReviveR's Avatar


ReviveR
12.12.2012 , 03:37 PM | #445
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Let me ask this:
If they were to offer the Tier 7 ship parts in one complete package for $5 on the CM and also offer it from a Vendor in game for 500,000 credits, would it still be a problem?

BJ
For me that would be almost as bad as the current implementation. This would still totally kill all the sense of progress and achievement (and challenge from earlier tiers).

Now if you could only buy / use the parts only after completing the earlier missions in combination to your suggestion might be a decent solution. Offering few of the items only as prize for completing certain missions and maybe one or two only with comms would be even better.

Somehow it seems Bioware completely forgot the basic rules of keeping a game interesting and are only going for a money grab. Buying better gear with grinded creds or a credit card is definitely the least interesting way to progress in a game.

Nydus's Avatar


Nydus
12.12.2012 , 03:42 PM | #446
What a huge change guys!

Previously one had to grind space missions into the dirt to get commendations or save up in-game credits to get what they need to win a space mission.

Now we have to grind space missions into the dirt to get commendations or save up in-game credits or use cartel coins to get what they need to win a space mission.

[Sarcasm]The Game is Broken!!![/Sarcasm]

Seriously guys, I'm not a fan of F2P but some of the commentary is forcing me to defend it.

- Arcada
The Arcada Legacy (Ebon Hawk)
Ord'os (Lvl.55 Sorcerer), Naresa (Lvl.53 Operative), Jagrafess (Lvl.19 Marauder)
Nydus (Lvl.54 Shadow), Toclafane (Lvl.27 Guardian)

bassfu's Avatar


bassfu
12.12.2012 , 03:43 PM | #447
You aren't competing with anyone, no one gives a **** about your progress during space missions, this isn't pay2win.

Macheath's Avatar


Macheath
12.12.2012 , 03:53 PM | #448
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Well, I agree that microtransactions are going to be the future of the gaming industry. Like them or hate them, the last 5-6 years have proven that MTs, DLC, Cash Shops, and their ilk are a lucrative business for developers and publishes. So yes, the face of gaming has changed from what it was 30 years ago when I got involved in playing and making games (as a hobby Ė damn my shortsidedness for not taking it more seriously back then). I donít agree that the subscription based model is going to go away completely.
I *sort of* agree with you (and yes, that does sound wishy-washy.)

Free-to-play/microtransaction models are the near-future of the genre, of that there is no doubt. I think it's going to be cyclical, though. We'll see the genre move towards the free to play model for a while yet, but sometime down the road, there will be a shift back to a system of... let's call them "bundles".

You know how I know this? Everything is cheaper when bundled. For any player who wants to log in every day, bundled content packages will be cheaper than pay-per-use type of content unlocks.

Let's look at some examples from other markets. Telephones. I pay a monthly phone bill instead of pay-as-you-go, because I want unlimited access. I have a bundle that allows me "unlimited evenings and weekends" because it's cheaper and easier for everyone involved when I bundle my services.

I bundle my power and heating through one company, because it's cheaper. I bundle my internet and TV cable because it's cheaper. When I buy a car, the car company lists certain "option packages." I don't pick and choose absolutely everything, I buy a certain bundle that comes with what I want, because it's cheaper for them to produce 3 different "option packages" than to produce each vehicle fully customized for each individual consumer.

Costco. Walmart. How do these big store chains undercut the little guys? Easy, producers give them a reduced rate for buying a ton of stuff all at once, then they give you a reduced rate when you buy a ton of stuff from them all at once. Bundles. Are. Cheaper.

And what's more, pay-to-play systems like BioWare's are inconvenient. Say I want to run a dungeon with my friend, but he's all out of dungeon access tokens. So he buys some more. We run the dungeon once, and afterward he asks if I want to go again, but now I'm out of tokens. So we decide to go PvP. We invite 3 of our other friends along, but 2 of them have used up their weekly allotment of PvP access tokens, so they decline, since they haven't budgeted for more PvP tokens this week...

Eventually, someone thinks, "Man, this sure would be easier if we all just had access to everything."

One day, years from now, once the subscription model is all but forgotten, we'll see this revolutionary new "all access pass" advertised by the free to play MMOs. These all access passes will grant full access to the game for, say, 1 week. Or maybe they'll grant full weekend access, so you can play all you want from 6:00pm Friday until 11:59 Sunday night. And we'll eat those up, thinking, "Oh, what a great deal this is! I can play all I want for just one simple transaction! Why wasn't it like this all along?"

-Macheath.
Remember, if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.12.2012 , 04:25 PM | #449
That's one of the things I mentioned about some of these restrictions BW put in place for F2P players. As I said, they are kind of behind the 8 ball because the game wasn't designed to be F2P from the ground up and the meat of the game is the 1-49 content, which is kind of tough to gate without making a sub based model, which we already know failed.

I don't disagree with your assessment of an All-Access Pass. That is pretty much what we have with the "Freemium" model that SWTOR and other games are using. Perhaps this model will be the one that takes over the genre in the coming years with pure F2P games offering a Lifetime All-Access pass in their cash shop (similar to STO's and CO's Lifetime Subscriber offers).

Thelrage is correct in that the debate on what defines P2W is a pointless task (for the most part). Even if there were an official definition of the term, those who oppose the side where the definition falls would still disagree with it regardless, because in the end it all comes down to personal playstyle and feelings on what constitutes P2W, regardless of how it is defined. So what I want to try to do here (and am leading up to with my questions), is try to bring the community together to find some common ground on the topic. I want to try to meet in the middle and find a way where something can be implemented that may or may not fall under your feelings of P2W, but is tolerable enough not to be that much of an issue.

We already know that BW will listen to feedback on the F2P implementation, so letís see what we can come up with here that would be equitable for most if not all and present that to BW for consideration. My goal to have enough in the CM to make purchasing from it worthwhile and yet not let it feel like a sham or a cash grab for the subscribers.

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

SneiK's Avatar


SneiK
12.12.2012 , 04:30 PM | #450
Quote: Originally Posted by EATtheDEAD View Post
f2p and sub/cash shop games are a virus infecting and destroying this once great genre of gaming. And we are all already infected.
Amen.