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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Felioats's Avatar


Felioats
12.12.2012 , 12:37 PM | #431
So much for end game gear not being for sale...
>

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.12.2012 , 12:48 PM | #432
Quote: Originally Posted by Felioats View Post
So much for end game gear not being for sale...
Let me ask this:
If they were to offer the Tier 7 ship parts in one complete package for $5 on the CM and also offer it from a Vendor in game for 500,000 credits, would it still be a problem?

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
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Lostpenguins's Avatar


Lostpenguins
12.12.2012 , 12:52 PM | #433
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Those are fair questions to ask. Then again, they already answered the last one on previous occasions. At this point, they have no intention of releasing the top tier PvP and PvE gear on the CM at this point in time. That, of course can change in the future if they see that selling those items would mean more money rolling into the game than not.

BJ
You know, I'm not even sure what's the point of these questions because, you're right, BW is going to do what makes them the most money and they're not going to say "never going full P2W" if their research shows, at some point, it will make them more money.

I just need to accept they'll do what's best for themselves and I guess I'm just basically saying, "Bioware, if you start selling any top-end gear through the CC beyond ship upgrades, I'm going to unsub."

Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Let me ask this:
If they were to offer the Tier 7 ship parts in one complete package for $5 on the CM and also offer it from a Vendor in game for 500,000 credits, would it still be a problem?

BJ
That is an interesting question. I mean, I didn't really cause a big hoopla that you could buy all of the end-game mods/hilts/enh/armorings off the gtn right now, so what's the difference if End Game gear was available on patch day for X amount of credits as well as Y amount of dollars, right?

That's a good question. I guess I made allowances for the current case of gear because BW's itemization is so bad it was much easier to have a crafter make all of my BiS gear versus trying to farm it. I guess I'm more okay with credits and community prices in game because generally you have to work a little bit for your credits and earn them while you don't have to do anything in game to whip our your credit card and buy it.

That opens up a whole realm of questions. If BW was okay with selling top-end gear on the CC, then why would they be against someone selling their account? I mean, BW already bans the selling of credits, but they seem to be okay with someone buying items from CC and selling it on the GTN, so it's sort of like buying credits (though the credit amount fluctuates due to market costs). In short, BW is against it because they do not profit from the transactions unless they control it via the Cartel Market, that's the bottom line.

ticklefist's Avatar


ticklefist
12.12.2012 , 01:12 PM | #434
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Let me ask this:
If they were to offer the Tier 7 ship parts in one complete package for $5 on the CM and also offer it from a Vendor in game for 500,000 credits, would it still be a problem?

BJ
Not sure where you're leaning with this but I'll bite. No, it would not be a problem. The cost would be more consistent. Right now the cost between gameplay hours/effort/hoop-jumping and real world money is so imbalanced that anyone who values their time will be compelled to simply buy these items and move on. Possibly feeling scammed in the process.

TheIrage's Avatar


TheIrage
12.12.2012 , 01:13 PM | #435
I am glad to see less and less P2W discussions and more about the business model itself and its consequences.

I will leave ( to continue playing) with one last thought to add.

I feel game developers are diving uncharted waters tapping into a supplies model for the gaming industry. They are gauging how far they can go. You can look at it as how much money they can squeeze out of us ( one one end) or how can they achieve a steady and balanced business model that enables them to survive in a business market where gamers are constantly hoping from game to game( the other side). We don't know not should really care to know which end EA/BW is pointing towards... its likely more of a little of both at this stage.

The one thing that is more certain however is that money will lead direction. Our forum discussions I feel may have little impact in terms of direct feedback ... the higher impact is on creating/altering perceptions on readers about company values, competitiveness, game direction and such.... which, if you can skim through the bias, it is easy to filter out.

I say this because ultimately I believe the answers to many of this questions lie in our cumulative wallet. I may think is wrong, unfair and/or don't have the money to pay for X item regardless of whatever ones opinion of what P2W constitutes. If it sells and enough people are willing to purchase said item to offset the 15$ of one's monthly subscription, well, math wins. Also, consider that the generic supplies sales model has been around for a long time and proven very lucrative. Remember inkjet printers and the cost of cartridges? Companies can and will utilize this model... how far they go depends on how much are we willing to pay for it, and , as in the inkjet business example, there are limits to how far/how long you can push this model.

Jacen_Starsolo's Avatar


Jacen_Starsolo
12.12.2012 , 01:21 PM | #436
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Let me ask this:
If they were to offer the Tier 7 ship parts in one complete package for $5 on the CM and also offer it from a Vendor in game for 500,000 credits, would it still be a problem?

BJ
We sort of have that already with HK51, don't we?

And I didn't see a real problem with it on HK51. But that's because there's other factors than what you put in there. And I did do the full quests twice now and probably will a third time (waiting on someone who said will be back into the game next month to run it with). But I wanted to see if there was any difference doing it REP or IMP side. One of the factors is we didn't get BH comms for HK (although doing the quest way to get him, it might have been a nice added bonus) but we didn't get that with HK. If the BH comms were taken out of the equation, I'd have a little less issue with it.

Calsetes's Avatar


Calsetes
12.12.2012 , 01:30 PM | #437
Quote: Originally Posted by ticklefist View Post
Not sure where you're leaning with this but I'll bite. No, it would not be a problem. The cost would be more consistent. Right now the cost between gameplay hours/effort/hoop-jumping and real world money is so imbalanced that anyone who values their time will be compelled to simply buy these items and move on. Possibly feeling scammed in the process.
Basically my thoughts on that, too. Someone who really enjoys the space combat could get 500,000 on their goal for a full set of high-end space gear. Hell, that's more than buying a full set of Grade 6 off the GTN by at least double. But the current standings - 1500 fleet comms, 400 or so daily comms, 300k credits, and then your choice of either more fleet and daily comms with cybertech, or even more credits on the GTN?

That's a lot of hoops to jump through for someone who was planning on using their "free" subscriber coins on, oh, I don't know, the Life Day holiday "event." You know, because "subscribers get free coins, so they have no reason to complain about anything in the Cartel Shop." The whole process reminds me of a Dane Cook skit involving going to the "Whopper Lair."

Anyway, I'm done ranting. Found out that the other pieces are in the game, albeit also at insane amounts of "things," so screw it. Space Combat, one of the things I found fun in the game, can now go perform acts on itself in private with an iron stick.
The average person thinks he isn't.
-Anonymous

Jacen_Starsolo's Avatar


Jacen_Starsolo
12.12.2012 , 01:31 PM | #438
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Well, I agree that microtransactions are going to be the future of the gaming industry. Like them or hate them, the last 5-6 years have proven that MTs, DLC, Cash Shops, and their ilk are a lucrative business for developers and publishes. So yes, the face of gaming has changed from what it was 30 years ago when I got involved in playing and making games (as a hobby – damn my shortsidedness for not taking it more seriously back then). I don’t agree that the subscription based model is going to go away completely.

Even though WoW now has a free trial, they are still just too big at this point to completely throw out the sub until the very EoL of the game. For the most part, I think we will see fewer and fewer sub based “AAA” games coming down the pike, and that most of what we will see will be the continuation of established niche games like Eve and the classic ones still hanging around. Those games have a much lower overhead cost per player than any games that are released today, so they have an easier time maintaining a healthy profit margin. A few years ago, I would have liked to see more games jump on the Anet bandwagon and do what they did with Guild Wars 1. To me, that is the best way to sell a game (partly because I am old school and believe in paying one up front fee to buy “my” game and play it whenever I want). However, within the last couple of years, we have seen the rise of the pure F2P game, and the switch from sub to “Freemium”, so I think that is where the industry is headed. I see it as a good thing, again because of my old school way of thinking when buying and playing games. It wasn’t until GW1 that I finally broke down and decided to try MMOs simply because it looked like it was a great game I would enjoy playing. It has since led me to at least try many others (a couple of which I still pop in on now and again) and finally land on SWTOR.

I haven’t looked at some of the other big games that have gone F2P recently, even STO, which I originally purchased a Lifetime membership for, in order to compare their offerings and restrictions to SWTOR’s but I do agree that some things are a big puzzling to say the least. I think part of that problem is that what BW is giving for free is the best part of the game and there is no real way to gate that, so other restrictions have to be made, and the fact that it wasn’t built from the ground up to be a F2P or B2P model. Personally, I think unlimited Flashpoints and Warzones would be fine, but allow no rewards to be gained from playing them for F2P players. I don’t agree that only two hotbars are allowed, though you can technically get through the game with just two. Three should be standard for F2P and “Premium” players, with us subs still getting our six.


BJ
I snipped half of your post just to save some people bandwidth

But a lot of what you put, I have to agree with. And it's already known the part we disagree on so just agree to disagree on the now dead horse.

But the action bar, I originally said that free should get 3, Preferred 4 (which is what old subs had already before they left if they left), and subs get 6. So you are only 1 bar for Preferred off from what I think.

And STO setup is, you'd have to be a nut to be paying a monthly sub now. Basically, people should either been old school LTS still remaining or free. The money people spend on a sub every month gets them nothing they couldn't have just flat out bought with a couple of months sub poured into their Zen (the coins formerly known as C-Points).

TOR gets crippled when you unsub with too many restrictions on things like quickbars and such.

That's the main reason I say TOR went too heavy handed with restrictions but STO went too light handed.

EDIT: They had a thread on STO site a few months back that showed that the difference between a lifer and a free player only took about 45-75 dollars worth of Zen then 5 dollars a month for Zen. Only difference was the liberated borg captain which has yet to appear in their store and at least Cryptic is not going back on that statement. You know like they did with the Mirror Universe uniforms and other things. So why someone would hand them 15 each month is crazy.

BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.12.2012 , 01:36 PM | #439
Quote: Originally Posted by Lostpenguins View Post
That opens up a whole realm of questions. If BW was okay with selling top-end gear on the CC, then why would they be against someone selling their account? I mean, BW already bans the selling of credits, but they seem to be okay with someone buying items from CC and selling it on the GTN, so it's sort of like buying credits (though the credit amount fluctuates due to market costs). In short, BW is against it because they do not profit from the transactions unless they control it via the Cartel Market, that's the bottom line.
Well see, now we are getting into a whole new realm of discussion with that, and the affect of EULA's in the gaming industry. But that's best saved for another thread/forum I think.

Quote: Originally Posted by ticklefist View Post
Not sure where you're leaning with this but I'll bite. No, it would not be a problem. The cost would be more consistent. Right now the cost between gameplay hours/effort/hoop-jumping and real world money is so imbalanced that anyone who values their time will be compelled to simply buy these items and move on. Possibly feeling scammed in the process.
That's exactly what I am getting at. And if that be the case, why not then ask for a reduction in the grind? I have to jump on board the ArenaNet ship here and say that having less grind in a game is a good thing. We can ask to have RW prices raised on these items, but where do we then draw the line on what's fair vs. what will prevent the item from selling enough to make it worthwhile to sell in the first place? Perhaps, instead of screaming P2W at every turn, perhaps we should be asking for a reduction to required grind which would save us our time, and thus allow that time to be used towards things in game that we find more enjoyable.

Let me take this a step further. I explained some of my feelings on selling end game gear in the store in a post on page 35. Since we can determine there can be a median where RW cost of a "P2W" item can be acceptable and equitable to the in game acquisition of said item, if the CM offered the top tier PvE gear set for $15 and it was also available in game via 2 million credits, would that be OK as well?

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

ZeroOneNine's Avatar


ZeroOneNine
12.12.2012 , 01:41 PM | #440
You actually have to be able to win for it to be pay-to-win. As it stands now, it's more of a pay-to-hate-space-missions-with-a-buring-passion.