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Pay2Win Space Missions ???

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BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.12.2012 , 10:42 AM | #411
Quote: Originally Posted by Jacen_Starsolo View Post
I just found it there and was coming back to post. I think the ones for Daily Comms are being overlooked because of where you have to get them from. Or what was on Dulfy's site was something different than what he said was in the packs.

Link to Dulfy page http://dulfy.net/2012/11/20/swtor-pa...pace-missions/
Cool, thanks for posting the information. Going OT for a bit, is this a good reference site for the game? I haven't noticed it before and am always looking for more sites with some good info.

Quote: Originally Posted by snewsh View Post
i played the chaa raa space mission with all the new gear and still pretty much died in a second when i flew past that minefield. if this was pay2win i want my win.
I haven't had the opportunity to play them yet, but I have seen several other people post about the difficulty. It could be that these missions need to be dialed back and are currently OPed. I suggested to someone else that they create a thread to that effect. If it seems that these missions are indeed too tough, then we should let BW know they need some nerfing.

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

TheIrage's Avatar


TheIrage
12.12.2012 , 10:45 AM | #412
Folks,

It is futile to keep going on an argument weather 1.6 and even 1.5 have brought us P2W. There are not presently accepted definitions and is a derogatory term currently evolving at forums level much like this one.

One can only use simple logic to attempt to analyze the term. I wrote several post now and to me it is pretty clear from a basic argument that 1.6 has brought Pay to win. To me winning on an MMORPG is parallel with progression. Since the items one buys from the Cartel Market (PAY) can be used and enhance your level of progression in the space minigame ( WIN) , one is Paying to Win. This is irrespective and uninfluenced by pragmatisms such as the number of people that do/did space missions, the long term good or potential of the game, etc.

So again, to me SWTOR has brought P2W with 1.6 and even 1.5. But perhaps a more important and interesting topic is to truly open up and discuss about the future of gaming. Potentially, this is good for the gaming industry; and the customer.

I will add also to what our resident BW PR representatives have already mentioned. No one is required to purchase anything. What is more, if you are agains P2W, you eventually benefit from it. Those purchasing the items ( who wont be you) are potentially improving your gaming experience by providing revenue to the game developers. Hopefully some of that revenue comes back as game content and much needed improvements. Compare that to subscription model. This however, is all fine as long as P2W does not spill over the competitive portion of the game or the core progression, then it is a different story/argument.

So to sum up, 1.6 brought P2W. It is an opinion based on fundamental concepts. Yet, it is not productive to continue engaging on definition arguments. I think time is better spent discussing the potential good or bad of this business model spreading through the gaming biosphere because, lets face it, the subscription model is probably dying and, in the age of growth and capitalism, micro-transactions win.

Jacen_Starsolo's Avatar


Jacen_Starsolo
12.12.2012 , 10:48 AM | #413
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
Cool, thanks for posting the information. Going OT for a bit, is this a good reference site for the game? I haven't noticed it before and am always looking for more sites with some good info.



I haven't had the opportunity to play them yet, but I have seen several other people post about the difficulty. It could be that these missions need to be dialed back and are currently OPed. I suggested to someone else that they create a thread to that affect. If it seems that these missions are indeed too tough, then we should let BW know they need some nerfing.

BJ
Dulfy is a good one. Normally, he/she (sorry I don't know who Dulfy is but uses a female Twileck (sp?) icon around here) will post stuff before it hits live. That person plays the PTS a lot. He/she does also post GW2 stuff but I only check out the TOR stuff there.

But with that said, it can be full of spoilers too so if you want to wait to see things when they go live, Dulfy might be a site you will want to avoid.

So yes, good information and rarely find misinformation but when it does pop because of a change, Dulfy will correct it pretty fast when brought to his/her attention.

May be someone can tell me if male or female so I can say he or she? lol

demotivator's Avatar


demotivator
12.12.2012 , 10:48 AM | #414
Quote: Originally Posted by Jacen_Starsolo View Post
And the new missions give BH comms so that carries over to non-space items being obtained by paying real world cash as a shortcut.

Edit: And some people are saying even after buying the packs that they still couldn't do the missions. So may be BioFAIL is starting a new trend. P2F = Pay 2 FAIL
Somehow I love this. Yes most of these new missions are gear check, but if you suck full Grade 7 ship won't help you.
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BJWyler's Avatar


BJWyler
12.12.2012 , 10:52 AM | #415
Quote: Originally Posted by TheIrage View Post
Folks,

It is futile to keep going on an argument weather 1.6 and even 1.5 have brought us P2W. There are not presently accepted definitions and is a derogatory term currently evolving at forums level much like this one.

One can only use simple logic to attempt to analyze the term. I wrote several post now and to me it is pretty clear from a basic argument that 1.6 has brought Pay to win. To me winning on an MMORPG is parallel with progression. Since the items one buys from the Cartel Market (PAY) can be used and enhance your level of progression in the space minigame ( WIN) , one is Paying to Win. This is irrespective and uninfluenced by pragmatisms such as the number of people that do/did space missions, the long term good or potential of the game, etc.

So again, to me SWTOR has brought P2W with 1.6 and even 1.5. But perhaps a more important and interesting topic is to truly open up and discuss about the future of gaming. Potentially, this is good for the gaming industry; and the customer.

I will add also to what our resident BW PR representatives have already mentioned. No one is required to purchase anything. What is more, if you are agains P2W, you eventually benefit from it. Those purchasing the items ( who wont be you) are potentially improving your gaming experience by providing revenue to the game developers. Hopefully some of that revenue comes back as game content and much needed improvements. Compare that to subscription model. This however, is all fine as long as P2W does not spill over the competitive portion of the game or the core progression, then it is a different story/argument.

So to sum up, 1.6 brought P2W. It is an opinion based on fundamental concepts. Yet, it is not productive to continue engaging on definition arguments. I think time is better spent discussing the potential good or bad of this business model spreading through the gaming biosphere because, lets face it, the subscription model is probably dying and, in the age of growth and capitalism, micro-transactions win.
I have no objection. I would like to see a discussion on that - anyone opposed?

For the wall of crazy, perhaps we can form a conglomeration that perhaps can either form a definitive use for the term or appeal to an "official" industry source to define the term for the future. Now that would be something.

BJ
Primus and Alpha on the PTS/Swords of the Republic on The Shadowlands
Check out our own Character Page which includes music and Quest Lists

and our YouTube Channel for Gameplay footage and more

Jacen_Starsolo's Avatar


Jacen_Starsolo
12.12.2012 , 11:04 AM | #416
Quote: Originally Posted by TheIrage View Post
Folks,

It is futile to keep going on an argument weather 1.6 and even 1.5 have brought us P2W. There are not presently accepted definitions and is a derogatory term currently evolving at forums level much like this one.

One can only use simple logic to attempt to analyze the term. I wrote several post now and to me it is pretty clear from a basic argument that 1.6 has brought Pay to win. To me winning on an MMORPG is parallel with progression. Since the items one buys from the Cartel Market (PAY) can be used and enhance your level of progression in the space minigame ( WIN) , one is Paying to Win. This is irrespective and uninfluenced by pragmatisms such as the number of people that do/did space missions, the long term good or potential of the game, etc.

So again, to me SWTOR has brought P2W with 1.6 and even 1.5. But perhaps a more important and interesting topic is to truly open up and discuss about the future of gaming. Potentially, this is good for the gaming industry; and the customer.

I will add also to what our resident BW PR representatives have already mentioned. No one is required to purchase anything. What is more, if you are agains P2W, you eventually benefit from it. Those purchasing the items ( who wont be you) are potentially improving your gaming experience by providing revenue to the game developers. Hopefully some of that revenue comes back as game content and much needed improvements. Compare that to subscription model. This however, is all fine as long as P2W does not spill over the competitive portion of the game or the core progression, then it is a different story/argument.

So to sum up, 1.6 brought P2W. It is an opinion based on fundamental concepts. Yet, it is not productive to continue engaging on definition arguments. I think time is better spent discussing the potential good or bad of this business model spreading through the gaming biosphere because, lets face it, the subscription model is probably dying and, in the age of growth and capitalism, micro-transactions win.
I missed this post before because I was typing about Dulfy's site to another person and how the screen went, I didn't see it until someone else replied to you.

The model itself: I really don't have a problem with it if it's in a true F2P game or even a B2P game ala GW. And GW tried to keep the better gear out of the shop. However, there are workarounds in there shop that can help you get the better stuff. Like how much coins you get for running the Bonus Mission series and then can buy from another player better gear. However, the PvP part of it doesn't really get touched by this. (Which stems to why I can separate the PvP out of the definition FYI)

The sub based game (TOR is still one how the F2P model is set up TBH because it's actually a trial of the game to 50 bumped up from the free to 15 that was here) with being heavy in MT type updates, I don't think can exist for long IMO.

Other games that started as a sub game and converted later have different levels of setup compared to TOR. I will concede that telling Bioware to copy ArenaNet's setup is impossible. ANet did GW and GW2 as B2P (btw, I hate that term on so many levels) from the start. Those that convert have to almost go back to the beginning and think what they can and cannot allow the trial players to do. I just feel that Bioware went too heavy handed. And another thread someone said to follow STO's model which I think was too light handed. I think both should move closer to the other but be in the middle.

TheIrage's Avatar


TheIrage
12.12.2012 , 11:07 AM | #417
Quote: Originally Posted by BJWyler View Post
I have no objection. I would like to see a discussion on that - anyone opposed?

For the wall of crazy, perhaps we can form a conglomeration that perhaps can either form a definitive use for the term or appeal to an "official" industry source to define the term for the future. Now that would be something.

BJ
It is a derogatory term by nature and one that over time may see broad consensus. Presently it is largely influenced by opinion so it will be difficult to form a definitive use even looking for an official industry source. The forum needed has to be largely unbiased which given the negative and polarizing context of the word and the present audience... yea not trivial. So my guess is it will take time and enough water to go though the P2W bridge.

TheIrage's Avatar


TheIrage
12.12.2012 , 11:29 AM | #418
Quote: Originally Posted by Jacen_Starsolo View Post
I missed this post before because I was typing about Dulfy's site to another person and how the screen went, I didn't see it until someone else replied to you.

The model itself: I really don't have a problem with it if it's in a true F2P game or even a B2P game ala GW. And GW tried to keep the better gear out of the shop. However, there are workarounds in there shop that can help you get the better stuff. Like how much coins you get for running the Bonus Mission series and then can buy from another player better gear. However, the PvP part of it doesn't really get touched by this. (Which stems to why I can separate the PvP out of the definition FYI)

The sub based game (TOR is still one how the F2P model is set up TBH because it's actually a trial of the game to 50 bumped up from the free to 15 that was here) with being heavy in MT type updates, I don't think can exist for long IMO.

Other games that started as a sub game and converted later have different levels of setup compared to TOR. I will concede that telling Bioware to copy ArenaNet's setup is impossible. ANet did GW and GW2 as B2P (btw, I hate that term on so many levels) from the start. Those that convert have to almost go back to the beginning and think what they can and cannot allow the trial players to do. I just feel that Bioware went too heavy handed. And another thread someone said to follow STO's model which I think was too light handed. I think both should move closer to the other but be in the middle.
Interesting discussion.

To me WoW is the last bastion on the MMORPG subscription only business model. It is pivotal to the industry for it has one of the largest subscription only base and is both a pioneer and leader in the base MMORPG game mechanics.

I too think BW might have gone a bit heavy handed on F2P ( not enough value to attract new players), I don't think they have yet gone far enough on P2W but I also don't think they have fully explored or even scratched the surface on the insane amounts of revenue they could make with added customization and cartel market. But I have to be honest and accept I have absolutely no data to back those opinions.

I can be more certain though that EA/BW has a team of business folks who are constantly looking at numbers, customer responses, industry trends, etc and they are actively looking for ways maximize their profits/minimize their risk when it comes to the F2P model.

I mentioned this on another post... people complain often that "it is all about the money" bringing up corporate greed as the driver for the business model evolution we are experiencing. They are right, in context ( greed aside). Not many years ago, while the industry was still discovering its market, there was noticeably more emphasis placed on developing ways to attract customers via unique content/game mechanics, etc. Those days are past and what we have today is a know formula and standard that most MMORPG's have adhered to ( The EQ/WoW model). The industry has matured and yes, there is higher emphasis on profits and business risk management... until capitalism kicks in and the next big thing arises... who knows we may live to see it.

nartiuslightlord's Avatar


nartiuslightlord
12.12.2012 , 11:34 AM | #419
I must admit this was a poor choice for them to add this. I try to not complain here anymore that much, but this trend has started and greed sometimes can make people do some very crazy things. You have to have a design and release red line you won't cross. This I'm afraid is just the start. they need to remove it fast or explain the reason why other then obvious greed it needs to stay.
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RichT's Avatar


RichT
12.12.2012 , 11:40 AM | #420
Of course these just haaaaaaad to be split into 3 packs right? Even if it was in one single pack, it would be crazy to expect people to have to buy them to try new space missions, but making 3 "sets".(.each sold seprately of course), goes a bit too far.

I could almost see this being ok for the F2P crowd...but as a Subscriber I would expect to be able to have ALL of these parts for equal or less than what I get in Coins for my Sub bonus. Subs are already "buying the content". Dont milk me.