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Wither vs 10+ Force

Shadowsite's Avatar


Shadowsite
12.11.2012 , 05:21 PM | #1
Hey my Assassin as a tank (level 30 atm) and I'm wondering if at lvl 50 it's viable to give up Wither for the 10+ Force from the tier 3 of Deception (can't remember the name of the talent). Please give me feedback.
A man that hides isn't a coward, he is the smartest man alive.
A man that fights is not brave, he is foolish
A man that walks away is the strongest of them all

Rynis's Avatar


Rynis
12.11.2012 , 08:36 PM | #2
Let me put it this way...

HELL NO.

Wither is amazing and 10 force is nothing.

verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
12.11.2012 , 09:49 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Rynis View Post
Let me put it this way...

HELL NO.

Wither is amazing and 10 force is nothing.
That.


Give up the best pve tanking ability of the class for half a trash?

Sin has non-degenerating ressource generation. Its not worth it unless, like deception, the point might as well go there.

So just go to 0, saber strike a few time there. Rather easy ressource management. Its actually the sole class that can do that when I think about it.

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
12.12.2012 , 12:20 AM | #4
Wither is definitely something you absolutely must have for any kind of serious tanking.

The the +10 force is nearly completely useless. Having more max force worth less than half of even your cheapest attacks is barely going to make noticeable difference, even in the fastest trash mob kills you end up using up all your force and then have to let it regenerate to be able to use more force cost attacks. In longer fights it is completely useless. Your force is not going to regenerate any faster with it either as it regenerates the same speed no matter how high or low it is.

Not to mention to get it you would have to give up some other more beneficial skills too, and you would have to spend points to some other stuff useless for a tank to get it.

Getting things that lower the force cost some abilities or allow you to regenerate more force faster will benefit you, but getting +10 force does not.

I know at level 30 you will struggle a bit with the force regeneration, since there is almost no tank gear, but as you level up and gear up your shield chance and defense chance will get higher and you start gaining much more force from Lightning Reflexes and Lightning Recovery, those problems will disappear, whenever you are main tanking. Also after you have spent 31 points in the tank tree and gotten wither, spend the remaining points on Madness tree and get Torment, which helps a little bit too.

This is pretty much the only way to go
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200MIrokrskbsZZf0cM.2

Shadowsite's Avatar


Shadowsite
12.12.2012 , 03:45 AM | #5
Ok thanks for the feedback I'm new to Sin so I wasn't sure if Wither was all that good. But it seems it is.
Now I have another question: Can I take Deathfield instead of Wither for the self heal? (simply asking. Again new to Sin)
A man that hides isn't a coward, he is the smartest man alive.
A man that fights is not brave, he is foolish
A man that walks away is the strongest of them all

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
12.12.2012 , 04:59 AM | #6
If you want to do less selfhealing in total, and loose a big chunk of your survivability and do less threat, for apparently no real benefits as a tradeoff, go ahead.

Wither not only debuffs your enemies with -5% damage, which is very important for your survivability, but it also builds up stacks of Harnessed Darkness allowing you to build up to 3 stacks much faster and heal yourself with force lightning more often, which also adds up to a lot more healing in total.


Well, put it this way...

PVE tanking: Absolutely not. Wither is a must have, and DF sucks.

PvP: Maybe. I suppose some builds with DF might be viable too, on some situations, but it is still questionable.



...
And you could have just gone to read some of those other discussions about wither vs deathfield

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
12.12.2012 , 05:24 AM | #7
Let's just explain the assassin tank attack rotation...

Note: this will not work the same way at level 30, since you don't have points in harnessed darkness yet, but when you do:

(this is not a priority list, but the actual order of attacks)

1. Shock (builds up first stack of HD)

2. Wither (debuffs the enemy with -5% damage and builds up second stack of HD)

3. Discharge (mainly for the accuracy debuff)

4. A melee attack (this will be either Thrash if high on force or Saber Strike if low on force or Assassinate if targer below 30%)

5. Shock (build up the third stack of HD) (may or may not be powered up with Enegize)

6. Force Lightning (consumes all 3 stacks of HD to do biggest damage and healing you)

And repeat that all over again and again, with maybe some slight variation depending on situation.

Of course that's just damaging attacks, you need to manage some other things at the same time too, like keeping Dark Ward up...

Anyway
Main points are
-always use shock and wither as soon as you can if they are not on cooldown and you don't have 3 stacks yet,
-use Force Lightning when you have 3 stacks of Harnessed Darkness and and never use it without 3 stacks (as even though 1 or 2 stacks do give some damage increase (though less than 3), only full 3 stacks will allow you to get selfheal)

That is what we use for selfhealing

ViridianVex's Avatar


ViridianVex
12.13.2012 , 12:17 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Shadowsite View Post
Ok thanks for the feedback I'm new to Sin so I wasn't sure if Wither was all that good. But it seems it is.
Now I have another question: Can I take Deathfield instead of Wither for the self heal? (simply asking. Again new to Sin)
For pve, you definitely want wither. However, a lot of people pick up death field for pvp, although not for the self heal. 23/1/17, up to instant whirlwind is quite strong, and the utility makes it one of the better assassin builds for rateds, not to mention a decent choice while you are gearing up. That said, if self heals are a priority for you, this obviously isn't the way to go.

PlagaNerezza's Avatar


PlagaNerezza
12.14.2012 , 01:25 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Shadowsite View Post
Hey my Assassin as a tank (level 30 atm) and I'm wondering if at lvl 50 it's viable to give up Wither for the 10+ Force from the tier 3 of Deception (can't remember the name of the talent). Please give me feedback.
Wither has a 5% damage debuff. There is a case to be made that an assassin tank might be better off in something like a 27/12/2 spec. Instead of using the standard rotation of shock/wither/thrash or discharge/ shock try the following.

Leveraging more "energize" to proc shock after cast with more thrashes (which in dark charge trigger a chance of healing) over going up to 31 points. While that might not produce as many 2% healing FL's you gain very advantageous things in the 27/12/2 spec. You gain an ability in 8-16 man boss fights to stealth and get healed. You can instantly drop your threat with stealth and get critical heals if your healer gets in trouble. In addition, you gain a 25% damage reduction for 6 seconds exiting stealth (starting fights) and when you use blackout. Paired with other stims and relics this is a wonder thing when things get hairy or bosses enrage and you need to up your damage mitigation.

In some of those AoE fights where these bosses fill the map with AoE dropping harnessed darkness and picking up a 30% AoE reduction might be better than a 2% heal and a 5% damage reduction. 23/17/1.

What is 2% of your health? In my case with 24000 health its 480. Now I know that adds up, but so does the aoe reduction and dark embrace damage reductions and getting healed out of stealth when your healer needs a second to catch up.

I think wither is good, but I look at other mitigation as a tank and I wonder if any high end pve tanks see it the way I do. I openly admit to pve being my secondary roll and do not constantly run pve or high end pve raiding.
"At last we will have our revenge" -Darth Maul
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MantorokTwelve's Avatar


MantorokTwelve
12.15.2012 , 09:40 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by PlagaNerezza View Post
Wither has a 5% damage debuff. There is a case to be made that an assassin tank might be better off in something like a 27/12/2 spec. Instead of using the standard rotation of shock/wither/thrash or discharge/ shock try the following.

Leveraging more "energize" to proc shock after cast with more thrashes (which in dark charge trigger a chance of healing) over going up to 31 points. While that might not produce as many 2% healing FL's you gain very advantageous things in the 27/12/2 spec. You gain an ability in 8-16 man boss fights to stealth and get healed. You can instantly drop your threat with stealth and get critical heals if your healer gets in trouble. In addition, you gain a 25% damage reduction for 6 seconds exiting stealth (starting fights) and when you use blackout. Paired with other stims and relics this is a wonder thing when things get hairy or bosses enrage and you need to up your damage mitigation.

In some of those AoE fights where these bosses fill the map with AoE dropping harnessed darkness and picking up a 30% AoE reduction might be better than a 2% heal and a 5% damage reduction. 23/17/1.

What is 2% of your health? In my case with 24000 health its 480. Now I know that adds up, but so does the aoe reduction and dark embrace damage reductions and getting healed out of stealth when your healer needs a second to catch up.

I think wither is good, but I look at other mitigation as a tank and I wonder if any high end pve tanks see it the way I do. I openly admit to pve being my secondary roll and do not constantly run pve or high end pve raiding.
Terrible idea. First of all, a tank using a threat drop in any PVE boss fight is a terrible idea that will punish you in bosses like zorn and toth, firebrand and stormcaller, kephess, the deep wriggler, the dread guard, kephess, and the terror from beyond. You can't solo tank the harder instances in this game.

You and your healer should be geared and competent enough to where you don't get in trouble. And when you do get in trouble, you pop force shroud, overcharge saber, deflection, medpack, relic, and an adrenal as able and necessary to stay alive. But the absolute only time you hit force cloak is when a wipe is called, all non-stealth players are dead, and you can safely vanish and revive people.

31/0/10 is the tried and true standard for a reason, and the thrashless rotation is the standard for a reason; they are the best in terms of DPS, TPS, and HPS. Darkswell is a good cooldown for deception assassins, not tanks. By going 27/12/2 you miss out on the best AOE threat generator in the game that isn't AOE taunt, threat and damage buffs to wither, shock, and discharge, cost reduction to shock, basically everything that makes assassins the best tanks. And in return you get a backstab buff that you can't use, 10 more force that doesn't make a difference, lowered cooldowns on stuff that really doesn't make a difference, and increased stealth level. I would not raid with an assassin who has fewer than 31 points into darkness.