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Tanking Stat Weights


KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.11.2012 , 10:33 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Redklaw View Post
Edit: the relic formula I am using is weighted for uptime, I agree 455 absorb on a 6 of 20 proc relic does not equate to 455 * 3 / 10 added to your absorb. Rather it is (MMactive * duration / cycletime) + (MMpassive * (1- duration / cycletime)). This can be extrapolated out to include multiple relics and cooldowns. You can see where the formula gets huge with multiple cd's and the fact that MM numbers are a really long formula themselves.
Yeah, my tanking spreadsheet has these formulae. It's…horrible. Very annoying to maintain those expressions. Fortunately, the on-use (and proc shield) relics have now fallen significantly behind the PvP passive and proc heal relics (well, for a shadow anyway), so I rarely have to deal with updating their values.
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Xtrema's Avatar


Xtrema
12.11.2012 , 01:20 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Don't do this. More mitigation stats are always better. If you're lowering your shield/absorb arbitrarily without directly increasing your Defense to compensate, you're operating counter to the intended purpose of the stat budget: more is always better, even if it skews the optimum ratios a little. You want to maximize your budget while getting as close to those ratios as you can.
No I am, I had a mix of shield, absorb and def augs to reach 29/50/50, I was just swapping augs basically. So, sorry I think I'm confused now...I should follow the ratios, but shouldn't mess too much with mitigation?

For my specific case, I'm hovering around 29.40% defense, 50.4% shield, and 49.8% absorb. If I were to swap 3xshield augs, and 1xabsorb aug all for defenses, I would be at 30.6/49/49. Which would then be the farthest I can go (i think) because like you said defense doesn't compete with shield/absorb and I only have def and absorb augs left. This is just an attempt at getting closer to your earlier explanation that defense is our most valuable stat. It's not much of a change, only 1% shield/abs for 1% def so not sure if it even matters. But did I understand it wrongly?
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.11.2012 , 02:25 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
So, sorry I think I'm confused now...I should follow the ratios, but shouldn't mess too much with mitigation?
Maximize your stat budget by using high Shield enhs and unlettered mods. This, combined with your augments, provides you with your total stat budget. However, because Shield never competes with either Defense or Absorb rating except on augments, you should never lower your Shield (except by removing Shield augs) to get to the appropriate ratio because the only way to do so is to use high End enhs, which would end up lowering your total stat budget. Shield is, functionally, a static value because it's a set value based upon your gear level rather than based upon your choice of Defense or Absorb stacking mods.

Quote:
defense doesn't compete with shield/absorb and I only have def and absorb augs left.
*Shield* doesn't compete with Defense and Absorb. Defense and Absorb compete with each other because any time you could be getting Absorb, you could be getting an equal amount of Defense instead. As such, if you want to get to the appropriate ratio, you should be replacing all of your Abs augs with Defense augs because of the massive value of Defense to your spec.

Of course, the problem with those numbers is, once again, that they don't take into account the fact that Shield is a functionally static minimum value at specific stat budgets. No matter what you do, you will *always* have at least 600 Shield rating if you are using unlettered mods, Bastion/Bulwark enhs, and the highest mitigation ear/implants. The only way to reduce your shield is to reduce your total stat budget, which you shouldn't be doing. What makes the numbers unreliable, especially for Guardians, is that the higher your Shield chance gets, the more comparative value you get out of Absorb. By stacking roughly 200 more Shield rating than you should hypothetically be stacking (assuming that all of the mitigation stats are perfectly and equally interchangeable, which they're not) at the 1600 stat budget (you'll get 600 shield rating and 1048 divided between Defense and Absorb with the prescribed mods/enhs/ear/implants) your stats are skewing what the ratios *should* be by having enough additional shield to make Absorb more valuable than it would be at the lower hypothetical optimal Shield rating.

I really don't recommend matching those exact values unless you're explicitly using predictable relics (i.e. passive relics or the proc heal relic; the use relics and the proc abs relic both mess with the numbers thanks to uptime/downtime and DR contributions making things screwy) *and* those values are explicitly possible within the confines of the game. For Shadows, unless you're using 2 passive Defense relics and a skewed mod/aug loadout in favor of Absorb rating to offset the 226 additional Defense you're getting from them, you'll always have more Shield than the optimal hypothetical would intend you to have (assuming you're gearing for max mitigation). For Guardians, you'll always have more Shield rating than you "should" have simply because Shield doesn't compete with either of the other stats. The only class that *can* reach the defined values are VGs and that's because they're the only class that needs more Shield rating (barring the acc debuffs and situationals reversing some given trends) beyond the static minimum.

Now, if the OP or someone else does a calc that factors in the static minimum for mitigation maximized loadouts at specific stat budgets, those numbers would be perfectly appropriate to follow (assuming that the relevant situationals are sufficiently accounted for), since they would be attainable without directly reducing your stat budgets to arrive at the given ratios. Of course, I follow the general mindset that there is enough randomness, especially between specific boss fights that end up having variable tank uptime ratios and swap rates, that it's really hard to suitably account for all the of the variability and provide a truly optimum loadout with all variables accounted for.

It's because of this that I've been saying that the numbers here are useful as a *guideline* but shouldn't be considered the gospel of optimal stat allocation. As long as your stats are something within a reasonable approximation of the ratios, you're golden. Like I've said, even with these numbers provided, the optimal loadout I'm aiming for is is still 532/600/516 def/shield/abs, which is quite a bit different than the 500/525/600 ratio that is listed here.
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dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
12.11.2012 , 05:14 PM | #34
figuring out which PvP relics to get is very helpful to reaching the stats you are shooting for. lucky for me i can always compute the best def/abs for a given shield value... and it is a much faster calc.

I would also like to mention that using the high endurance enhancements (steadfast 27) will offer you a higher time to kill at the expense of taking more dps.

NotRonin's Avatar


NotRonin
12.11.2012 , 07:10 PM | #35
The tanking spreadsheet is an excellent tool. However, it only solves the problem of how to minimize the damage you take from someone. What is more important in an operation setting is the stress on the healer.

A tank at full health incurs very little stress on a healer. A tank close to death incurs a lot of stress on the healer. So Healer Stress if a function of (Total HP - Current HP).

At any point in time, the average change in HP is described by (where t denotes time)

HP(t) = HP(t-1) , when you parry/dodge/deflect
HP(t) = (HP(t-1) - (Damage * (1 - absorb)), when you shield
HP(t) = HP(t-1) - Damage, if you neither shield or defend.

The healer will react based on the HP

1) When HP is full or close to full, do nothing.
2) When HP is between 60-80%, HoT and smaller, efficient heal
3) When HP is between 30-60%, use the big heal
4) When HP < 30%, relic/adrenal + biggest heal, without regard to resource.

Once you add in the resource level and the action of the healer, and you can build a Markov chain from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_chain

The full model is pretty complicated, but you can still draw some conclusions.

1) Having more HP is a good thing.
2) High Defense is better for the healer since you take no damage
3) Shielding more often with lower absorb is better than shielding less with higher absorb, even though amount mitigated is the same.
4) A good tank is one who can stay in stage 1 and stage 2 most of the time.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.11.2012 , 08:15 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by NotRonin View Post
1) When HP is full or close to full, do nothing.
2) When HP is between 60-80%, HoT and smaller, efficient heal
3) When HP is between 30-60%, use the big heal
4) When HP < 30%, relic/adrenal + biggest heal, without regard to resource.
You're assuming a lot about the psychology of healers here. A good healer will know, based upon the phase and state of the current fight, what the relevant incoming damage rate is and adjust their healing to compensate for it. It's called precasting, and it's the hallmark of a good healer, especially on fights like Warlord Kephess, where damage comes in hard and fast and doesn't provide you with a large window to be reactionary about things, even with a large hp pool.

This model works for healers that don't know fights and only ever bother to react to incoming damage, which is why, if it generally gets said when discussing the merits of high hp v. high mitigation loadouts, you should tailor you hp and mitigation to the abilities of your healer. I've always found it questionable at best to stack hp because, even with the most reactionary healer, if you tell them to dump heals into you for a specific phase, you can get them to start precasting when it's needed, largely circumventing the need for a larger hp pool.
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NotRonin's Avatar


NotRonin
12.11.2012 , 10:07 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
You're assuming a lot about the psychology of healers here. A good healer will know, based upon the phase and state of the current fight, what the relevant incoming damage rate is and adjust their healing to compensate for it. It's called precasting, and it's the hallmark of a good healer, especially on fights like Warlord Kephess, where damage comes in hard and fast and doesn't provide you with a large window to be reactionary about things, even with a large hp pool..
Defense chance and shield chance are random. A healer can expect the damage is on a boss like Stormcaller , but then shield/parry/absorb is moot since you're taking every single hit.

The effect of HP actually comes in tiers, which corresponds to the stages. It is hard to establish exactly where the points are, but each tier is around the size of a normal attack form a boss (~ 2k). Increasing your HP pool have rather limited effects until you can reach the next HP tier.

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
12.12.2012 , 01:25 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by NotRonin View Post
Defense chance and shield chance are random. A healer can expect the damage is on a boss like Stormcaller , but then shield/parry/absorb is moot since you're taking every single hit.

The effect of HP actually comes in tiers, which corresponds to the stages. It is hard to establish exactly where the points are, but each tier is around the size of a normal attack form a boss (~ 2k). Increasing your HP pool have rather limited effects until you can reach the next HP tier.
They may be random, but the boss phases themselves largely are not.

For the most part, it's an acceptable sacrifice to risk overhealing in the face of a largely deterministic attack string capable of large burst damage.

Nearly every boss fight that has a major "oh s**t" wallop in it has some blatantly obvious cue that said attack is incoming, which gives plenty of time for the healers to be casting proactively and minimize the odds of panic reactive response.

When a boss (e.g. Warlord Kephess) just has sustained high DPS, it's on a single target, so 2 healers can share the burden and work together to conserve resources and meet the HPS requirements.

Thanks to BioWare's raid design practices (thus far), gearing around reactive healer mentality just isn't necessary unless your healers are subpar, as Kirtu said. The lack "gamble attacks" like OHKOs or highly unpredictable damage spikes means that the ideal gearing strategy is simply minimizing healing required (maximized mitigation, or a balance between maximized mitigation and self-healing if applicable).

Edit: Just to reiterate what Kirtu was saying... naturally there is some need to account for objective reality, but if it is the case that the healers + tanks are a competent quartet, then simple math rather than psychology becomes the driving force behind optimization.

Icebergy's Avatar


Icebergy
12.12.2012 , 01:31 PM | #39
I can't speak for anything but the Guardian calculations, but it appears to me that the OP does not factor in diminishing returns. Stacking that much defense is a terrible idea. After about 600 or so defense you start to barely gain anything at all.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.12.2012 , 02:42 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Icebergy View Post
I can't speak for anything but the Guardian calculations, but it appears to me that the OP does not factor in diminishing returns. Stacking that much defense is a terrible idea. After about 600 or so defense you start to barely gain anything at all.
The OP does indeed take DR into account. Read his formulae. Stats like defense are definitionally on a DR curve from the very beginning, so it is impossible to get accurate predictions at any point without taking DR into account. The stat allocations given by the OP are correct and optimal, even for guardians.
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Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)