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Suggestion: Specc'd Cleanse should be off the gcd.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Healing
Suggestion: Specc'd Cleanse should be off the gcd.

CaptainApop's Avatar


CaptainApop
12.06.2012 , 02:25 AM | #1
Just a thought I've had recently.

Basically our current cleanse model looks like this. Debuffs in two flavours.

1) Relatively short duration damage over time.
2) Damage taken/done modifiers (torn and zoth for example). Usually a short-medium or long if its torn and zoth.

This carrys over to pvp with the addition of relatively short duration mezzes.

And the whole thing is compounded by a UI that is not optimizable to show us debuffs.

The result? Cleanse is annoying to use and of dubious usefulness. By the time you;
Notice the cleansable effect
Retarget
And likely wait a GCD because you were mid healing

Half-Most of the dot/mez has run out and you have to wonder if it's worth your time casting cleanse or to just throw out a proper heal. As of now BW put a small heal talented onto cleanse to make it more appealing.
Something I've thought since close to launch is an off the GCD mechanic to focus on besides triage could really improve healer engagement. Triage after all, gets stale a few attempts into most bosses. Additionally cleanse mechanics at the minute are a bit...optional barring a couple of examples. It seems like a clear area for improvement.
So onto the suggestion.

1) Remove the underwhelming heal from a specc'd cleanse, no one will miss it.
2) Take cleanse off the GCD when specc'd so we can weave it into what we're doing easily.
3) Potentially; reduce the cooldown, resource cost and number of debuffs cleansed done to make cleansing a group manageable while not actually increasing the number of debuffs dispelled. (Bake this into an optional talent? PvPers probably don't want it.)
4) Additional; Maybe asking too much but how about reversing cleanse priorities? ATM it will prefer to cleanse something with 1s of duration left rather than something with 8 seconds. Seems a little bass ackwards.

This allows BW to use cleansing and more interesting debuffs to increase the skillcap to healers without the rather binary condition( if damage in > healer output ; raid =dead) getting in the way.
Off the top of my head examples;

Doctor Lorick style debuff:
Stacks up over time, does damage and increase damage done. Cleanse it when you can't handle more damage. Good healers can then contribute to dps in a meaningful way and less optimal ones can be compensated for by the damage dealers.

General purpose "**** loads of dots":
Dreadtooth is kind of like this at the minute and the 6 second dispel cd annoys to no end, especially in the 16m+ version where it feels like it could make a big difference.Better healers can "heal" more than bad ones without dramatically boosting rotation complexity or healers hps.

I really think this could be a positive change for healers. Additionally cleanse is instant, meaning that if it's a bigger part of healing then healers can be "effectively" penalised less on high movement fights. Again, provides more room for potential mechanics.

A good example of why the current model is bad I find is minefield. Before NiM mode did you even notice those debuffs? I didn't for a good while but even after knowing about them I don't really cleanse then outside of nightmare. Opportunity cost and aoe overhealing makes it unappealing.

What do you lot think? Constructive idea or is my mind just wandering to get me to stop studying for exams?

Being able to filter/scale debuffs in the UI editor would also be nice >.> Figured I should mention it while I'm here.
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theblaznee's Avatar


theblaznee
12.06.2012 , 07:32 AM | #2
/signed

Would be a really nice quality of life change for healers, and I can't for the life of me seeing balancing being affected much.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.10.2012 , 03:20 PM | #3
Awesome idea. Honestly, this is the best and most balanced plan I've heard yet for fixing cleanses in this game. Not sure that the cooldown needs to be dropped, though a reduction in cost would be nice. The commando cleanse is *incredibly* expensive, at 4.1% higher cost than the "mirror" ability for mercs, and a whopping 233% more expensive than a Sage/Sorc cleanse. Just taking the cleanse off the GCD would be perfect. Pair that together with a UI scaling option that allows us to actually *see* debuffs and I would be a very happy healer.
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Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
12.10.2012 , 04:06 PM | #4
I would rather have all cleanses being capable of cleansing all effects when specced. (Trooper/Smuggler Force and Sage Tech). But I guess it would go against the rock-paper-scissor PvP model. It would also break lore a bit but gameplay should take precedence over lore.

As to your idea ye sounds good. On T&Z I often have DPS calling for cleanse of the damage debuff but I have to tell them to wait for a free GCD because I am too busy with healing.
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CaptainApop's Avatar


CaptainApop
12.11.2012 , 08:55 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
I would rather have all cleanses being capable of cleansing all effects when specced. (Trooper/Smuggler Force and Sage Tech). But I guess it would go against the rock-paper-scissor PvP model. It would also break lore a bit but gameplay should take precedence over lore.
The force/tech effect metagame definately isn't explored enough to make the cleanse distinction interesting, I'd agree there. It's doubly frustrating when things like snares in pvp share the same debuff icon regardless of their cleanse type.
e.g For a SW you basically need to have guessed his spec before he slows you to know whether you can cleanse it or not. Or, more likely you hit cleanse and just hope for the best.

Conceptually I like it though. If physical, force and tech effects were actually themselves distinct somehow it could be a fun mechanic. As it is ALL the force/tech/physical separation means is "You can cleasne A or C but not B" which isn't crotch grabbingly exciting.
And then mental is somewhere there too and no one is really sure *** that is, it seems to be mezzes in general but there's some mezzes I can't cleanse and some I can and just...UH....
"I bind kolto probes to Q, partially for the convenience but mostly for the irony"

Subterfuge legacy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

Chaqen's Avatar


Chaqen
12.12.2012 , 07:21 PM | #6
I think with the changes that you suggested they would have to increase the amount of detrimental effects that go out on all future fights.

In response, i would also fear the game taking a path that EQ2 did after RoK, where increase difficulty for healers came in the form as more and more detrimental effects that they had to watch out for. By the time i quit the game (end of TSO) healers were expected to cure group members within 1 to 2 second window and would have to cure in such a way probably 5 to 10 times a minute.
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Hiniba's Avatar


Hiniba
12.13.2012 , 02:23 AM | #7
Agreed. Right now in pve I feel like there's time where the cleanse is REALLY important (Writhing horror for example) or it's completely useless (most of all content).
Basically I'd want it the way a lot of other games do it where most fights you can live without cleansing but the mark of a good healer, tactically not gear wise, is how effectively they cleanse.
Basically right now there's plenty of debuffs going around but a large portion cannot be cleansed or don't make enough impact to be relevant. Flip side is when cleansing is important it is sometimes too important.

I'm fine with some fights having a cleanse or die mechanic or cleanse or you'll be spending a lot more time healing them sort of things, it helps medics practice that skill more and distinguishes the good medics from the bad ones once they know the mechanics (well at least can help you decide). But what I'd really like to see if more debuffs that are cleans-able in a sort of "I don't need to cleanse him but he'll probably be easier to keep up if that dot and that reduce armor were gone" Not so much that it simply becomes cleanse then heal but instead moves to analyzing should I cleanse him first or heal now?
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CaptainApop's Avatar


CaptainApop
12.13.2012 , 04:03 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Chaqen View Post
I think with the changes that you suggested they would have to increase the amount of detrimental effects that go out on all future fights.
That would be the point actually yes. Though not purely detrimental debuffs by necessity.

I realize by your example that taken to it's logical extreme it's bad but so is any system really.

I'm not advocating a million and one "cleanse or die" mechanics in every fight. I'm just advocating making cleanse a user-friendly healer mechanic (unique from how dps cleanse) and consequently using debuffs as a means to give us some more interesting healer mechanics. Which we somewhat lack in just about all content thus far.

Caveat: I remember hearing about Torn and Zoth NiM, about baradium poisoning being negated by a medpac. In my mind I figured it was a "heal to full to cleanse" thing and medpacs beating it was unintentional, but no. THAT was the mechanic. Pop a medpac. I died a little inside.
"I bind kolto probes to Q, partially for the convenience but mostly for the irony"

Subterfuge legacy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

SlimsPicken's Avatar


SlimsPicken
12.13.2012 , 05:25 PM | #9
100% agree. cleanse should not take a GCD.
For every man there is a sentence, a string of words, which has the power to destroy him.

Satedbuffalo's Avatar


Satedbuffalo
12.14.2012 , 09:05 AM | #10
I approve of this suggestion. Honestly, a UI update would be the most impactful piece of this.

Then again, PvP-wise, these changes might be an issue.

Still, definitely a well thought-out contribution.