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The way tanking relics should be.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
The way tanking relics should be.
 

Marb's Avatar


Marb
12.11.2012 , 12:44 AM | #1
These proposed changes to tank relics are meant to make the dread guard relics the superior relics to use for pve gameplay at best, and at worst, competitive with static pvp relics. I have made simple changes that mirror the modifications to the dps and heal relics Bioware made in 1.5.

EDIT: I have removed the subjective adjustments to the proc and shield on use to keep the scope of these changes as close to current in game relic implementation as possible. Also, some power was added back onto the relics in place of endurance. The ratio of endurance to power I have used is just an example.

  • Duration changes to "on use" relics have been increased to 30 seconds to bring them in line with other similar relics.

  • Tanking stats and power have been added in place of some endurance to increase overall mean benefit and to keep a portion of the boost to threat generation that was provided by lower tiered relics via power.

[Relic of Imperiling Serenity]
+40 Endurance
+24 Power
+47 Defense Rating

On Use: Increases Defense Rating by 350 for 30 seconds.

[Relic of the Shrouded Crusader]
+40 Endurance
+24 Power
+47 Shield Rating

On Use: Increases Shield Rating and Absorb Rating by 215 for 30 seconds.

[Relic of Shield Amplification]
+40 Endurance
+24 Power
+47 Absorb Rating

On Equip: Shielding an incoming attack grants 455 Absorb Rating for 6 seconds. This effect can only occur once every 20 seconds, and shares this limit with similar defensive effects.
Zerkhan - Harbinger

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.11.2012 , 01:37 AM | #2
The proposed change to the Relic of Shield Amplification doesn't actually do anything appreciable, since essentially all tank classes are going to see it proc nearly exactly on cooldown. The only minor exception to this are juggernauts/guardians, but even they don't currently see a significant (read >1s) delay.

The other changes sound about right though.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.11.2012 , 03:26 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Marb View Post
[*]Static tanking stats have been added in place of power/endurance to increase overall mean benifit of these relics in order to make them competetive with static pvp relics.
The use/proc benefits of the relics are already substantial enough that they don't need additional passive attributes to make them justifiably competitive. The Power is present to make it so that you actually get some degree of additional threat generation in addition to all of the mitigation, for the same reason that tank augs have Power on them and DPS augs have Endurance. They're there to round out your effectiveness

Quote:
Absorb Rating has been removed from the [Relic of the Shrouded Crusader] and given aditional shield rating instead, making this relic more compatible with the [COLOR="purple"][Relic of Shield Amplification]
I'm not entirely sure I agree with this. While it would make the use relic more compatible with the proc relic, I don't really see the virtue in the automatic assumption that an absorb proc is used according to the itemization of the relic.

Quote:
[The [Relic of Shield Amplification] has had its proc effect expanded to also trigger off attacks that are dodged, making this relic more desirable to tanks with lower shield rating. This change increases the chance for this relic to proc, and gives it greater synergy with the on use tanking relics.
Rather than causing it to trigger off of a successful defense chance (which seems a bit arbitrary to me), I think I'd rather see the developers simply add 2 additional proc relics for tanks: one that procs off of dodging that adds to Defense Rating and another that procs off of shield and adds to Shield Rating, to follow suit with the Internal/Elemental/Kinetic/Energy proc relics that DPS get to choose from. At least that way there would be more legitimate options for proc relics depending on whether you want more burst defense/shield/abs (of course, all 3 of them would be on the same ICD, so you couldn't just use 2 of them).

The only *major* change that I think is even remotely needed is buffing the on use tank relics so that they either have ~50% more rating or a 50% longer duration so that they're no longer explicitly *worse* than the lower grade use relics, which is completely bass-ackwards. If the developers want the duration of the tank relics to be shorter than they used to be, it doesn't really bother me, but they should at least have improved the values to make up for it. The other relics are in a pretty good state as it stands (even if it does perturb me that they removed the Power from the tank relics and replaced it with more Endurance that I honestly don't think is useful): they're all roughly similar in utility and effectiveness, which provides a lot of potential equivalent options that each have specific situations in which they are best, which, in my never humble opinion, is a good thing. If you really want to make it so that you never have to PvP to get a useful passive relic, just recommend that the developers include some passive relics with identical mitigation stats as the PvP passive relics, just replacing the Expertise with a bit of extra Endurance and some Power to normalize them for PvE.
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Marb's Avatar


Marb
12.11.2012 , 04:12 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The use/proc benefits of the relics are already substantial enough that they don't need additional passive attributes to make them justifiably competitive. The Power is present to make it so that you actually get some degree of additional threat generation in addition to all of the mitigation, for the same reason that tank augs have Power on them and DPS augs have Endurance. They're there to round out your effectiveness
I would have to say I disagree with this. The changes I proposed for these relics, are just the same changes they made to the on use power and damage proc relics, making them better all around then the pvp relics. These changes are just supposed to mirror that, making them not only situational on tank swap fights, but also better when used on cooldown for the greatest mean benefit.

I'm not sure why you're in opposition of bringing these relics in line with the relative value of their dps counterparts.

My changes to the shield on use relic and absorb proc though, as far as changing the proc effect, and removing absorb from the on use, I'm not really satisfied with either. I do like the idea of having more varieties of tank proc style relics.
Zerkhan - Harbinger

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.11.2012 , 04:49 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Marb View Post
I'm not sure why you are in opposition of bringing these relics in line with the relative value of their dps counterparts.
I'm not opposed to the relics being made as comparatively useful as those of the DPS relics. I believe that they are already there and have been for a while. The only place where they're *not* is in the duration on the use relic.

It's important to keep in mind that even the DPS relics aren't purely focused on DPS: they still have some amount of Endurance on them. As such, I think that it's appropriate that the tank relics have some degree of threat generation improvement on them. Hell, without some amount of tangential DPS stats attached to mitigation stats, I doubt most tanks would have *any* threat generation stats (I'm weird though, I stack Willpower way heavier than most Shadows do, though I do it at the cost of Endurance; it makes my threat beastly and I'm still just as hard to kill as anyone else around), and I think that it behooves the developers to make sure that that tangential stats are present.

Sure, it would be great if they dropped some of the passive Endurance for a *useful* tank stat instead of Power; I would use those in a heartbeat if they were added because I'm a mitigation stacking crazy person but, from an overall design standpoint, I don't think it's the best way to do it. DPS classes already ride hard on the heals of some tank's nominal threat generation; if everything tank related is hyperspecialized around mitigation stats, we'll get to the point where taunt spamming is the *only* way to generate enough threat to keep up with DPS.

It's not so much a stand based on "what would be best for me as a tank personally" (I'll readily admit that the relics you came up with would be more "optimal" than what we've currently got) and more of a stand on principle that, even in a game where specialization is key, no one should be able to hyperspecialize to so much that they're largely incapable of providing some progressively increasing degree of personal survivability or damage dealing as they progress through tiers of content.
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Marb's Avatar


Marb
12.11.2012 , 05:07 AM | #6
EDIT: I have removed the subjective adjustments to the proc and shield on use to keep the scope of these changes as close to current in game relic implementation as possible. Also, some power was added back onto the relics in place of endurance. The ratio of endurance to power I have used is just an example.

@Kitru
I'm veering off topic, but you bring up a very relevant point about tank damage. Each new tier of gear seems to increase damage and healing output much more than a tanks damage (threat). Going from rakata raiding, where I never had to taunt, to dread guard, where against certain classes I do have to taunt purely because I'm GCD locked in my ability to burst out enough TPS at the beginning of an encounter.

There are some times when I don't taunt, and its fine, but I just put that down to dps (mr marauder and mr powertech) stuffing up or not getting a proc, and not my magical tanking ability.

Going forward I wonder how Bioware plans to scale tank threat. They could just do a regular threat bump to all the tank stances again, but that would be so lazy.
Zerkhan - Harbinger

TheBigGregski's Avatar


TheBigGregski
12.27.2012 , 12:52 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Marb View Post
Going forward I wonder how Bioware plans to scale tank threat. They could just do a regular threat bump to all the tank stances again, but that would be so lazy.
Problem is, they only have two ways of doing that : either up our threat (which they already did a few monthes ago), or up our dps, and that would cause an immense uproar in the PvP crybabies community.

For now, as a Shadow, I'm comfortable with my threat generation per se, and I know I can taunt on a regular basis if needed (NiM Stormcaller for example, as we're a tad short on dps and my aggro ho's need to pull some massive damage right at the beginning of the fight)

wetslampigduex's Avatar


wetslampigduex
12.27.2012 , 01:12 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I'm not opposed to the relics being made as comparatively useful as those of the DPS relics. I believe that they are already there and have been for a while. The only place where they're *not* is in the duration on the use relic.

It's important to keep in mind that even the DPS relics aren't purely focused on DPS: they still have some amount of Endurance on them. As such, I think that it's appropriate that the tank relics have some degree of threat generation improvement on them. Hell, without some amount of tangential DPS stats attached to mitigation stats, I doubt most tanks would have *any* threat generation stats (I'm weird though, I stack Willpower way heavier than most Shadows do, though I do it at the cost of Endurance; it makes my threat beastly and I'm still just as hard to kill as anyone else around), and I think that it behooves the developers to make sure that that tangential stats are present.

Sure, it would be great if they dropped some of the passive Endurance for a *useful* tank stat instead of Power; I would use those in a heartbeat if they were added because I'm a mitigation stacking crazy person but, from an overall design standpoint, I don't think it's the best way to do it. DPS classes already ride hard on the heals of some tank's nominal threat generation; if everything tank related is hyperspecialized around mitigation stats, we'll get to the point where taunt spamming is the *only* way to generate enough threat to keep up with DPS.

It's not so much a stand based on "what would be best for me as a tank personally" (I'll readily admit that the relics you came up with would be more "optimal" than what we've currently got) and more of a stand on principle that, even in a game where specialization is key, no one should be able to hyperspecialize to so much that they're largely incapable of providing some progressively increasing degree of personal survivability or damage dealing as they progress through tiers of content.
I do the same with the augments on my powertech, i got to 53.5 shield and 56 absorbs thru gear and just loaded all reflex augments. Figured the xtra endurance and a lil more dps couldnt hurt. sitting at 1934 aim.. as a tank lol just under 28khp

Zennhorn's Avatar


Zennhorn
01.01.2013 , 09:27 AM | #9
I'm all for some PVE orientated pvp based relics, when it comes to gear and stats normally i go with my 'gut' feeling and when my new jugg hit 50 i decked it out to how i wanted the stats to feel
in full 61, with dread armouring in boots,belt,bracers, gloves and OH, with might 27 hilt my stats sit at (exo stim):
24448 hp, 8067 Armour, 48.76% DR, 29.14% Def, 51.28% Shield, 52.94% Absorb.

Marb aka Strudel (who happens to be a guildy) stuck my stats into a spreadsheet for me, turns out i just need to swap 72 bsorb for 72 def to be sitting just on the sweet spot.

as for relics, I use 1x War Hero Relic of Imperling Serenity, and 1x Dread Guard Relic of Shield Amplification.
and my augs are mainly absorb with shield and def to balance stats. Full dread should see me reach the 27-28k hp pretty easily without losing any mitigation