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Tanking Stat Weights


Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.10.2012 , 02:10 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
does that mean you would advocate using the PT set bonus for the +2% defense over the warrior tank set bonuses? Since that's taking a full 2% defense over a boost in our absorb ability.
No, I wouldn't. The 20% increase in your absorb is a phenomenal boost to your survivability, not to mention that the 2 pc with the Supercommando is wasted whereas the 2 pc for the War Leader set makes your already powerful CDs even better. It's a question of 2% Defense being nice, but not as awesome as 20% more absorb (which is useful against *all* attacks, not just M/R) *and* 1 extra second of 100% Defense w/ Saber Ward and extending Warding Call's duration to be equal to the standard CD duration of 12 seconds.
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Redklaw's Avatar


Redklaw
12.10.2012 , 07:27 PM | #22
The number are VERY possible to reach in a way that you reach a statistical parity, my numbers for 1712 posted earlier are my actual numbers with gear equipped and I use a spreadsheet to balance, so I am only a bit off (less that 20) on all the stats listed for 1700.

One of the things that makes this easier is using the appropriate mods and enhancements in order to make stat balancing with augments easier.

For example, as a Vanguard / Powertech you can balance your stats a bit easier if you always try to have absorb on your mods and defense on your enhancements (viceversa is nearly as good, but you need a bit more absorb augments than the rest to balance out). The reason you want to have balanced mods is in the event of an upgrade that doesn't conform to your gear scheme, so you can compensate via swapping augments to re-balance later.

The pattern is probably different with the other tanks, I haven't bothered stat balancing my Jug or Assassin, since one is on a different server than my main and the other I never got to that gear level.

Question for Kitru:

Why would you never devote augments to shielding? My vanguard uses 3 of them as they net more mean mitigation than the other two will. Or is this statement referring to the other two tank classes that have a lower gain from shield rating?

As a note: I don't really get what is so hard to read about that data, there isn't really a way to display it other than a wall of numbers heh.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.10.2012 , 08:44 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Redklaw View Post
The number are VERY possible to reach in a way that you reach a statistical parity, my numbers for 1712 posted earlier are my actual numbers with gear equipped and I use a spreadsheet to balance, so I am only a bit off (less that 20) on all the stats listed for 1700.
It really depends on the class you're talking about. Remember, Shield doesn't compete with Defense or Absorb through normal gearing means (re: everything except for augs) so, assuming you're stacking your mitigation and using high Shield enhs, you're going to have a functionally static amount of shield. You can't lower that shield to increase your absorb or defense, so, sometimes, the explicitly listed optimal ratio isn't really accessible without dropping your total stat budget (this is going to happen a lot with Guardians and Shadows). VG don't really have this problem because they want to stack the living hell out of their Shield.

Quote:
Why would you never devote augments to shielding?
You can get all of the Shield rating you need by simply using high Shield enhancements (which you're probably using anyway to get to said high stat budgets). Since Shield only competes with Endurance (and Accuracy, but who cares about Acc on a tank) but Defense and Absorb directly compete with each other as well as Endurance, you should be auging for Defense and Absorb to reach the appropriate level of parity within your given stat budget.
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Teioh_White's Avatar


Teioh_White
12.10.2012 , 08:57 PM | #24
Well, to be fair, the PT bonus is 2% against everything, not just wait. I know i've shrugged off spits from TFB with it, so not certain how that weighs in there. I don't know how an extra 22 HPS from the shield stacks up to 2% chance to resist anything, but I would miss my two more seconds on invincible.

Also, I'd feel weird looking like my PT on both Chars.

Redklaw's Avatar


Redklaw
12.11.2012 , 12:42 AM | #25
But even with full bastion or bulwark 27 enhancements (the highest 27 enhancements for mitigation I can find / make) PTs and VGs have to add Augments for shielding to hit stat optimization, even with 27B absorb / defense mods (unlettered variants just push the value of shield higher). There just isn't enough shielding available on our gear otherwise.

Take a look at the values in the OP again Kitru, the tech tanks have an unusually high optimal shield, an average absorb, and a very low defense value as their sweet spots.

Force tanks though, yeah I agree totally on that assessment.

Note: I forgot the numbers and source, but I remember someone worked or the 4 piece set bonus for jugs as being one of the best in game, will try to dig it up later or do independent math. I wouldn't touch the tech tank bonus.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.11.2012 , 01:40 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Redklaw View Post
Note: I forgot the numbers and source, but I remember someone worked or the 4 piece set bonus for jugs as being one of the best in game, will try to dig it up later or do independent math. I wouldn't touch the tech tank bonus.
It is really really good. The vanguard/powetech 4 piece is quite significant as well, but not in the same league.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.11.2012 , 04:00 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Redklaw View Post
Take a look at the values in the OP again Kitru, the tech tanks have an unusually high optimal shield, an average absorb, and a very low defense value as their sweet spots.
The most you would need to do, assuming you're not using the passive stat relics, is 4-5 (full 27 unlettered mods, full Bastion/Bulwark enhancements, and high mitigation ear and implants provides you with 600 Shield exactly, with a stat budget of 1648 without using passive relics). I've also got a bit of a problem with using those exact numbers because their interplay with the various relics and debuffs: the presence of the acc debuffs, especially the 20% from Smoke Grenade, is gonna do some wonky things to those numbers when factored in (especially when factored in when weighed based on uptime rather than averaged for effect). It's one of the reasons why, even though I know about these calcs and think they're a respectable guideline, I don't follow them explicitly (my Shadow optimal loadout is 532/600/516 rather than the 500/525/600 that I "should" be aiming for).

Quote:
Note: I forgot the numbers and source, but I remember someone worked or the 4 piece set bonus for jugs as being one of the best in game, will try to dig it up later or do independent math. I wouldn't touch the tech tank bonus.
The reason why it's so awesome is the same reason why self healing is so awesome for Shadows: it's post mitigation flat damage reduction. Post mitigation incoming damage is low enough thanks to high tank mitigation that the comparatively minute increases to abs/sec equate to truly impressive decreases to required healing, especially for the hybrid spec which gets 25% more out of it.

I do find it amusing that the 4 pc set bonuses for VGs and Shadows are designed to offset the weakest point of mitigation (Defense for VGs; DR for Shadows) whereas Guardians just get an outright improvement to an already potent mitigation mechanism.
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Xtrema's Avatar


Xtrema
12.11.2012 , 04:37 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I've got a Guardian tank, but my Shadow is my main so I don't focus as heavily on gearing her perfectly as I do my main. As such, I do actually try to follow the general gist of the optimal weights, mainly because it's true that defense is substantially useful to a Guardian than Shield/Abs.



When calculating spikiness, you first have to look at each of the comparative chances of mitigation: with 29/50/50, you've got a 29% chance of taking no damage, a 35.5% chance of taking half damage, and a 35.5% chance of taking full damage; with 30/45/45, you've got a 33% chance of taking no damage, 30.15% chance of taking half damage, and a 36.85% chance of taking full damage. Since your DR should be completely static (same talents and same armor rating), the only difference in spikiness arrives from the difference in those percentages (Shadows have higher spikiness than either of the other tanks specifically because they have *way* lower DR). You're only 1.35% more likely to take an unmitigated hit so you're *slightly* spikier, but it's such a small amount that its not likely to be noticeable. In the same vein, you'll end up taking less damage over the entire course of a fight: the first setup would have you take ~53.25% damage pre-DR; the second would have you take ~50.42% damage pre-DR. That nearly 3% difference is pretty massive, so you're trading off a bit of spikiness for a pretty large increase in total mitigation.

The reason that Guardians care so little for Shield/Abs is pretty simple actually: Shield and Absorb are synergistically useful. To make Shield useful as a mitigation stat, you need a lot of Absorb; to make Absorb useful as a mitigation stat, you need a lot of Shield. Shadows and VGs both get plenty of Shield and Absorb from their respective tank specs. Guardians, on the other hand, do not. In fact, they get a lot of Defense, which ends up just making Defense even more valuable (the higher a mitigation stat gets as a percentage, the more valuable from a comparative mitigation standpoint further increases get). Once you realize that, it becomes pretty obvious that Defense stacking is the way to go.
I'm finding it very hard to match the numbers, I'm trying to lower my shield/abs evenly to those levels, absorb I can drop easily, but shield comes with every piece of enhancement so it seems like I will always have more shield than absorb. I'm at roughly 656/689/387 (def/shield/abs). How can I swap shield for defense? Is there a workaround I'm not seeing?
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.11.2012 , 05:06 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
I'm trying to lower my shield/abs evenly to those levels
Don't do this. More mitigation stats are always better. If you're lowering your shield/absorb arbitrarily without directly increasing your Defense to compensate, you're operating counter to the intended purpose of the stat budget: more is always better, even if it skews the optimum ratios a little. You want to maximize your budget while getting as close to those ratios as you can.

Quote:
How can I swap shield for defense? Is there a workaround I'm not seeing?
You can't and that's one of the reasons why I don't feel the need to tell people to follow these numbers explicitly. Defense rating doesn't compete with Shield/Absorb rating on anything but augs. No matter what, the Shield rating for *every* tank class, assuming maximum mitigation ratings, barring the PvP passive relics, will have 600 Shield rating. Shield rating is, functionally, a value with a static minimum based on specific tiers of gear. These calculations don't really factor that in (not that they couldn't, but it would make the math way more complicated).

Like I've been saying all along, don't work too hard on following the values *explicitly*. They're a guideline for what the optimum ratios are at various stat budgets, but they don't account for the numerous other factors, like situational effects and the complexities of sectionalized itemizations (since Shield/Absorb/Defense rating come in discrete chunks at a time rather than in perfectly fluid quantities and aren't universally interchangeable in every way).
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Redklaw's Avatar


Redklaw
12.11.2012 , 08:24 AM | #30
Quote:
The most you would need to do, assuming you're not using the passive stat relics, is 4-5 (full 27 unlettered mods, full Bastion/Bulwark enhancements, and high mitigation ear and implants provides you with 600 Shield exactly, with a stat budget of 1648 without using passive relics). I've also got a bit of a problem with using those exact numbers because their interplay with the various relics and debuffs: the presence of the acc debuffs, especially the 20% from Smoke Grenade, is gonna do some wonky things to those numbers when factored in (especially when factored in when weighed based on uptime rather than averaged for effect). It's one of the reasons why, even though I know about these calcs and think they're a respectable guideline, I don't follow them explicitly (my Shadow optimal loadout is 532/600/516 rather than the 500/525/600 that I "should" be aiming for).
I'm using passive pvp relics in all fights with except ones where two tanks transfer a single boss (both versions of Kephess and TFB actual). I'm working on a calculator that calculates mean mitigation factoring in uptimes for cool downs and relics, the formula for relics is very much in favor of the PVP relics in fights with high tank uptimes. I'm using one shield and one defense pvp relic usually.

The math for relics is a bit complicated and an eyesore, it can be found in one my my spreadsheets posted earlier however.

The built in tech tank accuracy debuff is a very good point that I'm going to adjust my spreadsheets and the program I'm writing to account for. Should be mathematically equivalent to adding the debuff to the total defense percentage.

Edit: the relic formula I am using is weighted for uptime, I agree 455 absorb on a 6 of 20 proc relic does not equate to 455 * 3 / 10 added to your absorb. Rather it is (MMactive * duration / cycletime) + (MMpassive * (1- duration / cycletime)). This can be extrapolated out to include multiple relics and cooldowns. You can see where the formula gets huge with multiple cd's and the fact that MM numbers are a really long formula themselves.