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Lost Island HM should have better loot.

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Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
12.10.2012 , 01:17 PM | #301
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
I'm not against difficulty, but the drop should match its difficulty for the majority, the drop should give upgrade to the majority who can do it, that's being fair. And that's most of the good games are doing.

Also LI is different than some OPS, its difficulty of the 3 bosses are around the same level, all of them are significantly more difficult than all the Tier 1 HM bosses and very hard for Tionese groups. So it's not like most of the people with Tionese can at least clean 1-2 bosses, get the upgrade and try to do more next time.

And I don't understand what are you people against? Would the LR-5/Sav Rak fight have less fun if they drop Rakata? No. Will the majority try it with Tionese right now? No, but with better gears, more people will be willing to do it.
You don't understand, because you don't want to understand. It has been said by numerous people lots of times that the reason why this wouldn't be feasible is how the flashpoints are infinitely repeatable to obtain full rakata gear rather than through the traditional way of weekly operation attending. The reward already offered in HM LI is well in accordance with it's difficulty. Rakata Chestpiece is among the most difficult to obtain Rakata item in the game, and I know a lot of people who have even BH gear but no weapon, that Columi weapon given there is also quite often sought for. I am not even adding the pet and the mount, not to mention the 8 additional BH comms to your already 5.
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Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
12.10.2012 , 01:34 PM | #302
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
I'm not against difficulty, but the drop should match its difficulty for the majority, the drop should give upgrade to the majority who can do it, that's being fair. And that's most of the good games are doing.

...
Here's the thing, saying that the drops don't match the difficulty is just another way of saying it is too difficult.

If Bioware actually changed the drops in HM LI to all Rakata, this sets a precedent. Why stop at HM LI? SM TfB is harder than HM LI. That only drops Rakata except for the last boss. Should that be changed to drop Black Hole on every boss? HM EC is harder than SM TfB, but that only drops Campaign. Should that be changed to drop Hazmat and Dread Guard?

You're arguing in favor of gear escalation by an entire tier (56 to 58). Bioware hasn't done that on ANY of their content tweaks. On the other hand, they HAVE nerfed content and made it easier. Your insistence that HM LI is too hard will result in:

1) The level designers ignore you and leave it untouched, or
2) HM LI get's nerfed yet again.

This is why I press my case. I don't want it to be nerfed.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.10.2012 , 01:43 PM | #303
Quote: Originally Posted by Ephesia View Post
You don't understand, because you don't want to understand. It has been said by numerous people lots of times that the reason why this wouldn't be feasible is how the flashpoints are infinitely repeatable to obtain full rakata gear rather than through the traditional way of weekly operation attending. The reward already offered in HM LI is well in accordance with it's difficulty. Rakata Chestpiece is among the most difficult to obtain Rakata item in the game, and I know a lot of people who have even BH gear but no weapon, that Columi weapon given there is also quite often sought for. I am not even adding the pet and the mount, not to mention the 8 additional BH comms to your already 5.
So what? Rakata is no big deal now, and its implants/earpieces/relics can be obtained with daily com. Only SI/JC could not get their MH with strip out offhand weapon's mods.

And you get none of these(beside the pet) unless you beat Lorrick, but the 3 bosses share the same difficulty. Which means you get none of these after the hard work against LR-5 and Sav-Rak.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
12.10.2012 , 01:46 PM | #304
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
...

Would the LR-5/Sav Rak fight have less fun if they drop Rakata? No. Will the majority try it with Tionese right now? No, but with better gears, more people will be willing to do it.
(emphasis added by me)

On my first level 50 (the one I had so much trouble with HM LI and wiped over and over and over again), I wanted to do HM LI for four reasons:

1. I wanted the satisfaction of beating LR-5, who had caused me so many repair bills.
2. Despite several HM EV pug runs, I had yet to win the Rakata Chestpiece off of Soa.
3. Being a Commando dps I couldn't get the offhand off of Battle of Ilum and rip out the barrel, so I still needed the Columi mainhand.
4. The Midnight Rakling is one of the rarest pets in the game and I thought it would be awesome to have it.

The day that I FIRST finished HM LI, I was wearing 4 pieces of Black Hole (BH comms from the group finder) and Rakata ear/implants from daily comms.

So despite being massively overgeared for HM LI, I still had rewards awaiting me for finishing the instance. The risk vs rewards aren't so great as you are describing.

Note that on my third level 50, I went through HM LI wearing 1/2 Columi and every single drop was an upgrade. I didn't actually WIN every drop, but had I done so, each would have been an upgrade.

This is far. Fair fair fair fair fair. Fair.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.10.2012 , 01:49 PM | #305
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Here's the thing, saying that the drops don't match the difficulty is just another way of saying it is too difficult.

If Bioware actually changed the drops in HM LI to all Rakata, this sets a precedent. Why stop at HM LI? SM TfB is harder than HM LI. That only drops Rakata except for the last boss. Should that be changed to drop Black Hole on every boss? HM EC is harder than SM TfB, but that only drops Campaign. Should that be changed to drop Hazmat and Dread Guard?

You're arguing in favor of gear escalation by an entire tier (56 to 58). Bioware hasn't done that on ANY of their content tweaks. On the other hand, they HAVE nerfed content and made it easier. Your insistence that HM LI is too hard will result in:

1) The level designers ignore you and leave it untouched, or
2) HM LI get's nerfed yet again.

This is why I press my case. I don't want it to be nerfed.
Bioware did, they added Exotech and Columi implants/earpieces to Tier 1 HM, that's what I'm asking them to do for LI.

And yes, they will nerf TFB and possibly EC HM once new OPS and Tier is out to avoid huge gear gap between characters.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.10.2012 , 01:55 PM | #306
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
(emphasis added by me)

On my first level 50 (the one I had so much trouble with HM LI and wiped over and over and over again), I wanted to do HM LI for four reasons:

1. I wanted the satisfaction of beating LR-5, who had caused me so many repair bills.
2. Despite several HM EV pug runs, I had yet to win the Rakata Chestpiece off of Soa.
3. Being a Commando dps I couldn't get the offhand off of Battle of Ilum and rip out the barrel, so I still needed the Columi mainhand.
4. The Midnight Rakling is one of the rarest pets in the game and I thought it would be awesome to have it.

The day that I FIRST finished HM LI, I was wearing 4 pieces of Black Hole (BH comms from the group finder) and Rakata ear/implants from daily comms.

So despite being massively overgeared for HM LI, I still had rewards awaiting me for finishing the instance. The risk vs rewards aren't so great as you are describing.

Note that on my third level 50, I went through HM LI wearing 1/2 Columi and every single drop was an upgrade. I didn't actually WIN every drop, but had I done so, each would have been an upgrade.

This is far. Fair fair fair fair fair. Fair.
1. And once you beat it's over, also too many wipes with pugs could let many people stop think of it, especially it does not drop good gear.
2. Get BH chest piece.
3. No, as Commando(Same as Mercenary right?) you can do it, buy a offhand blaster and strip out the mods, just it won't be tank MH.
4. Not everyone likes it, I saw it drop last week and passed on it.

So you admit even you have to overgear it when you firstly finish it. Then why shouldn't Bioware change it? So it's your 3rd char and you need at least half Columi for pugs, but others need at least full Columi.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.10.2012 , 01:57 PM | #307
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
And I don't understand what are you people against? Would the LR-5/Sav Rak fight have less fun if they drop Rakata? No. Will the majority try it with Tionese right now? No, but with better gears, more people will be willing to do it.
There are already plenty of people that do it. The problem is that a lot of people go into it undergeared and not knowing what they're doing. Improving the gear that drops from successful runs isn't going to do anything about either of those. In fact, making it drop all Rakata gear would probably make it get *more* undergeared people running it because it would let them completely skip over EV KP and the SM version of EC and TfB from a gear progression standpoint.

HM LI is *not* a hard instance. The gear requirement for it is nowhere *near* what most people run it at and the gear it drops is appropriate for the *gear that is required to complete it*. Just because most people can't run it without vastly overgearing it because they're largely incompetent and have no idea how to do basic research or follow strats beyond the simplest of tank/spank doesn't mean that the said players should be *rewarded* for having to overgear the content in question *especially* when doing so would fundamentally screw up character gear progression.

Improving the drops for HM LI isn't needed: plenty of people already run it without problem, and it's not going to make the fights spontaneously easier for those people that have problems with the mechanics because they've got to actually finish those fights to get that gear.
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Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.10.2012 , 02:00 PM | #308
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
There are already plenty of people that do it. The problem is that a lot of people go into it undergeared and not knowing what they're doing. Improving the gear that drops from successful runs isn't going to do anything about either of those. In fact, making it drop all Rakata gear would probably make it get *more* undergeared people running it because it would let them completely skip over EV KP and the SM version of EC and TfB from a gear progression standpoint.

HM LI is *not* a hard instance. The gear requirement for it is nowhere *near* what most people run it at and the gear it drops is appropriate for the *gear that is required to complete it*. Just because most people can't run it without vastly overgearing it because they're largely incompetent and have no idea how to do basic research or follow strats beyond the simplest of tank/spank doesn't mean that the said players should be *rewarded* for having to overgear the content in question *especially* when doing so would fundamentally screw up character gear progression.

Improving the drops for HM LI isn't needed: plenty of people already run it without problem, and it's not going to make the fights spontaneously easier for those people that have problems with the mechanics because they've got to actually finish those fights to get that gear.
I had groups with a lot of people and I don't see the "plenty" as you claimed, Tionese groups I've met never beat LR-5 or even get close. Even these people in the thread could only do it with really good groups and that's mostly after they did it with better gear. We need at least Columi to beat it. And the game should balance the drop base on its majority rather than a few elite runners.

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Kitru
12.10.2012 , 02:31 PM | #309
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
And the game should balance the drop base on its majority rather than a few elite runners.
No, the game should drop what is appropriate for the intended gear level that the content was designed for. The content was *designed* such that it can be completed by a group in Tionese if executed exactly as intended. The fact that most people *can't* execute the content exactly as intended (interrupting asap, killing adds asap, not standing in bad stuff, blowing CDs to survive burst damage phases) and have to overgear it because they've got poor execution has no bearing upon what the drops should be.

The difficulty of HM LI is completely separate from the gear requirements. It requires a reasonably skilled *player* behind the keyboard, not just a keyboard smasher with a well geared character. Tweaking the gear rewards won't make people more likely to do it (most people will *still* wipe continually when they're first learning it while the people that already know it will still just laugh their way through), and it would only screw up the existing progression that's *already* been heavily compressed by the addition and prevalence of BH comms and is getting compressed even more with 1.6 providing full Tionese to every 50 immediately.
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Khevar
12.10.2012 , 02:33 PM | #310
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
I had groups with a lot of people and I don't see the "plenty" as you claimed, Tionese groups I've met never beat LR-5 or even get close. Even these people in the thread could only do it with really good groups and that's mostly after they did it with better gear. We need at least Columi to beat it. And the game should balance the drop base on its majority rather than a few elite runners.
I believe that what is really needed is a clear explanation of strategy. This is most effectively done in vent by someone who really knows what to do.

I had been unable to pass the fight in Black Hole/Rakata despite reading strategies and watching videos. It only took ONE TIME in vent with another player who walked us through every encounter and we finally mastered the fights. I have done the same for other people, people who previously thought the encounters were practically impossible. One of the players I taught went on to teach other players the same way. She actually spent most of of a weekend doing about 10 runs with different people in her new guild who hadn't been able to master HM LI.

So I've personally seen at least 20 players who went from "HM LI is too damned difficult" to "Wow, I can do HM LI!"

I wish you were on Begeren Colony, because I firmly believe that I could get you into vent and take you through the fights in such a way that you would know how to run them cleanly and this would change your mind about how difficult it is (or isn't).

Edit: Pro tip. If you are on interrupt detail for LR-5, are you catching incinerate within 0.7 seconds of the cast? If you are, good. If not, here's what I suggest to people having troubles.

1. Turn on "Focus Target"
2. Make it nice and big so you can see the cast bar.
3. Bind your Interrupt to one of your mouse buttons closest to your thumb. For me I use my "Browser Forward" mouse button.

If I'm on interrupt detail I can catch incinerate before the 1-stack mark 95% of the time with this method.

This works as a tank, dps or healer. If you're a healer on interrupt detail (even though I don't recommend it) you can still catch it before one-stack by hitting tab (left pinky)+interrupt (right thumb) as soon as you see the cast bar, then go back to healing.

Edit Edit: Pro Tip #2, There is an exact pattern to the flaming grates. And the energy coils drop at regular intervals. A correctly executed strategy will allow you to move in such a way that the players hardly ever have to be standing in a flaming grate.

Pro Tip #3, the adds don't do a lot of damage. Often times the tank will AOE taunt them to the middle to reduce stress on the healer.

Just these three things above, executed properly, will reduce healing from "OMGWTFBBQ" to "We Did It!"