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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
12.09.2012 , 07:59 PM | #501
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
BW's ingame collected stats show that Merc dps does more damage than other dps classes. That is the dominant factor that has driven 12 months of nerfs to the subclass. And throughout that process, the more BW nerfs Merc dps, the better Merc dps ingame collected stats look. Which is why the nerfs keep coming.

What Bioware does not comprehend is that player migration causes a inverse relationship between buffs and class performance. The more a class is buffed, the more new players/rerolls surge towards that class. The influx of undergeared, inexperienced players lowers that classes meta average productivity - which is what BW measures. Conversely, when a class is nerfed, the people who leave that class are the worst players using that class - as they are the ones who now find the class non-viable. The ones who remain are the best geared, most skilled players. Thus the meta average productivity for a nerfed class actually RISES.

We have seen this phenomenon in action multiple times. The 1.1 nerfs to Operative dps followed by BW's need to nerf them again in 1.2 is a prime example. In more recent times, the surge in Mara/Sent dps toward the Focus/Rage spec actually lowered that spec's meta average productivity. Which lead BW to buff them further. Conversely, as Mara/Sent players fled the Anni/Watchmen spec, those left were the higher productivity players. Which lead BW to nerf them, despite the widespread knowledge amongst the player base that they were the weakest Mara/Sent spec.

The bottom line is that player migration renders BW's ingame stat collection irrelevant. The ingame stat collection code should be removed and the server CPU cycles saved should be used to improve server performance.

Source? I hear you spout this all the time and it all sounds nice and reasonable, as all great conspiracy theories do, but I have no reason to believe it has any particular bearing on reality. Before the buff to Focus/Rage, Rage Juggs were known to be a strong spec when played right but weren't exactly super popular. Only the very dedicated played the spec, and they were good at it, which should have driven the spec's meta-average up, yet they were buffed (which is what led to all the FotMers). Whose not to say that the operative nerfs in 1.1 and 1.2, and the Grav Round nerf in 1.2, weren't all QQ oriented? People whined, they nerfed the whined about classes, and then they still whined later when operatives could still be dangerous.

Also your theory that BW primarily uses meta-averages still fails to explain why they Stockstrike knockback nerf, which appears to have been feedback driven, even if their take of that feedback was just plain silly.

As for your numbers stating that Merc/Commando does the most damage, I need some proof. Sounds like a stat you pulled out of your hind end.

Sorry dude, but without some hard proof that BW is relying totally, completely, and stupidly(i.e. taking numbers at face value instead of trying to interpret them properly) on ingame metrics, your entire theory, and by extension all your crazy rants on the subject, don't hold much water.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
12.09.2012 , 09:01 PM | #502
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
Before the buff to Focus/Rage, Rage Juggs were known to be a strong spec when played right but weren't exactly super popular. Only the very dedicated played the spec...
Not even close bub. Can you even read my post correctly? I referred to Marauders not Juggs. Large numbers of Mara/Sents were transitioning to Rage/Focus before the buff, but since they also had to grind a new set of gear, they were underperforming. And hence, meta averages for the spec were down and the buff occurred.

Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
As for your numbers stating that Merc/Commando does the most damage, I need some proof...without some hard proof that BW is relying .... on ingame metrics, your entire theory, and by extension all your crazy rants on the subject, don't hold much water.
As someone who generates probably 90+% of the Merc Pyro meta average on my server, I can conclusively state that Merc Pyro damage averages on my server are higher than any other subclass. For the vast majority of the player base who actually pays attention, BW's notorious statements about classes being within 5% of each other in damage output, about KDR and about precisely monitoring the number of stun lock kills is more than sufficient evidence that BW uses ingame collected statistics to drive class (im)balance management. You, it is clear, feel that I have somehow but a burr up your backspout with math and statistics. It's too bad. But math and statistics will continue to exist.

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
12.09.2012 , 10:35 PM | #503
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
What Bioware does not comprehend is that player migration causes a inverse relationship between buffs and class performance. The more a class is buffed, the more new players/rerolls surge towards that class. The influx of undergeared, inexperienced players lowers that classes meta average productivity - which is what BW measures. Conversely, when a class is nerfed, the people who leave that class are the worst players using that class - as they are the ones who now find the class non-viable. The ones who remain are the best geared, most skilled players. Thus the meta average productivity for a nerfed class actually RISES.
As I've said before, I think you've probably hit the nail on the head with this one. On the plus side IF we ever do get fixes, the resulting influx of crap players to the AC will probably lead to a chain of further buffs later heh.

Silly Bioware.
WFW - Waiting For Wildstar
Zachar´ah - Commando / Chasso - Merc
Youtube / Twitch
2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
12.09.2012 , 11:18 PM | #504
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
Not even close bub. Can you even read my post correctly? I referred to Marauders not Juggs. Large numbers of Mara/Sents were transitioning to Rage/Focus before the buff, but since they also had to grind a new set of gear, they were underperforming. And hence, meta averages for the spec were down and the buff occurred.
Again source? I don't recall there being a huge influx of mara/sents switching over to smash spec before the buff. I recall a metric TON of them the day AFTER they buffed the spec. Your logic is severely flawed. They don't buff classes cause FotMers are driving down meta averages. FotMers flock to classes which have been buffed and away from classes which have been nerfed. But maybe I'm wrong. Since you clearly have access to all their data though maybe you can provide the exact number of derp smashers in the weeks leading up to 1.3 along with their accompanying meta-averages.

I didn't PVP back before 1.2 but apparently there used to be a ton of TM/GR spammers. Would not a ton of untalented spammers have lowered the meta-average and thus not drawn the ire of the nerf bat. But there WAS a ton of QQ about it.



Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
As someone who generates probably 90+% of the Merc Pyro meta average on my server, I can conclusively state that Merc Pyro damage averages on my server are higher than any other subclass. For the vast majority of the player base who actually pays attention, BW's notorious statements about classes being within 5% of each other in damage output, about KDR and about precisely monitoring the number of stun lock kills is more than sufficient evidence that BW uses ingame collected statistics to drive class (im)balance management. You, it is clear, feel that I have somehow but a burr up your backspout with math and statistics. It's too bad. But math and statistics will continue to exist.
Proof? You do good in warzones, have access to every single merc and commando on your server, have access to literally everyone else's numbers server wide, and can thus conclusively show that Merc/Commando meta average is higher than every other subclass? Go ahead. Post your data and it's source.

Also I never said they didn't use their infamous metrics. I said you make a wild claim when you think they just collect a bunch of data, take a meta-average, and then no matter what anyone else is saying, buff or nerf based solely on that. That little blurb about K/D ratio that got everyone in a huff? That came from a guy whose ENTIRE JOB is to take all that data they're collecting and properly interpret it and analyze it and turn that analysis over to the people who need it. You're assuming that this is all done in a vacuum.

You know what the thing is about math? You have to make assumptions which are actually valid and you have to prove your claims. If there's a "burr up my backspout" it's because you're doing it wrong. I certainly hope math isn't going anywhere, because I'm depending on it for job security.

You've taken the knowledge that they collect tons of data from ingame. You know they've made a ton of absolutely idiotic class balance changes. You've then taken that knowledge and concluded that this is the only thing they're using for balance, and that the guys in charge of interpreting the data are also quite stupid.

Now your conclusion might actually be true, but you have to prove it, which you haven't done. You just post your theory over and over as if it's self evident fact, with no proof needed or given, and then operate based on your conclusion which so far as I can tell has not been validly reached.

In addition to being an example of how not to do logic, this is just counterproductive because you might be the guy standing on a large soap box loudly exhorting the masses not to burn all their crops. They weren't gonna do that yo. BW may or may not be doing class balance based solely on this mythical meta-average. If they are, then fine, you're right to tell them to stop doing that. If they aren't, then every post you spend talking about this just distracts from the issue.

So before bothering to tell them not to do that we should be assured that that is what they're doing. I personally don't think they are. You're blatantly asserting that in point of fact they are. Your claim, your burden of proof.

So. Source?
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.09.2012 , 11:29 PM | #505
there has been a steady shift of population towards mara/jugg/assassin/powertech over the last 6 months or so. 1.3 really started the change, as it became clear which classes would make up the perfect compositions.

no one can *prove* any of the theories that get thrown around on the forums. unless it is something a dev said specifically, it is all conjecture.

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
12.09.2012 , 11:43 PM | #506
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
there has been a steady shift of population towards mara/jugg/assassin/powertech over the last 6 months or so. 1.3 really started the change, as it became clear which classes would make up the perfect compositions.

no one can *prove* any of the theories that get thrown around on the forums. unless it is something a dev said specifically, it is all conjecture.
That's fine but you can't treat conjecture as fact, because that's also how math works.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Aaoogaa's Avatar


Aaoogaa
12.10.2012 , 12:20 AM | #507
Quote: Originally Posted by DariusCalera View Post
Probably not.

So I would place the blame on individuals that have never, or very rarely, played a commando.
There is no blame here... the devs pulls a ripe stinker there with that change. What a piss poor idea to change our escapability...really friggin dumb.
-I would rather pay for a great game than play a poor game for free.
-Viable and worthwhile are not the same when it comes to class design.
55 Commando - 50 Gunslinger - 50 Guardian
Beta tester...loved the game, hate what it has become.

Aaoogaa's Avatar


Aaoogaa
12.10.2012 , 12:24 AM | #508
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
there has been a steady shift of population towards mara/jugg/assassin/powertech over the last 6 months or so. 1.3 really started the change, as it became clear which classes would make up the perfect compositions.

no one can *prove* any of the theories that get thrown around on the forums. unless it is something a dev said specifically, it is all conjecture.
After seeing most of what the devs have posted since launch I really wouldn't take what they say as proof that thinks are right.
-I would rather pay for a great game than play a poor game for free.
-Viable and worthwhile are not the same when it comes to class design.
55 Commando - 50 Gunslinger - 50 Guardian
Beta tester...loved the game, hate what it has become.

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
12.10.2012 , 03:49 AM | #509
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
Proof? ... you have to prove it, which you haven't done. You just post your theory over and over as if it's self evident fact, with no proof needed or given
According to this line of thinking, you need to *PROVE* that PowerShot is better than RapidShots since you've repeated that over and over. Oh wait, I proved it wasn't. By using.....MATH. And when faced with that numerical proof, you simply ignored it and repeated your "articles of faith". Which is exactly what would happen here if I tallied the next hundred warzone matches on my server with Merc Pyros in it. You aren't looking for proof, you are just fighting a rear guard action out of stubbornness.

You don't like my theory? Then ignore it. Ignore the fact that it explains why BW habitually double nerfs classes. Ignore the fact that it explains why BW buffs skill trees that the top PvP players acknowledge are already the most powerful. Ignore how players migrate between classes. And ignore the fact that BW periodically touts their ingame stat collection.

Dragondar's Avatar


Dragondar
12.10.2012 , 05:07 AM | #510
My commando is my 2nd 50 and frankly the leapers screw me over. Sure I can Kb and SLOW them down until they get within their melee range. My cryo grenade stuns (can be broken) then I am left with my root that sticks them for a good 2-3 sec for 1 grav round shot to hit them. Point is trying to kite a melee class as a commando is pointless I get smashed and Juggs/Guards are worse as they are immune to every single defensive ability we have (root/stun). I am tired of being a glass cannon and just being destroyed by level 20s who get the jump and I cannot do anything with their leaping ability or their snipe-n-win. I would like to have my full auto to root and my root to go back to a KB, it was nice to Kb and being able to move back a bit to get a shot in.