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Suggested Mercenary/Commando Changes for 1.6

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Bounty Hunter > Mercenary
Suggested Mercenary/Commando Changes for 1.6

gluefoot's Avatar


gluefoot
12.04.2012 , 12:40 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
this is not rocket science......
But it IS rocket science.




because rocket punch? get it?

LeonHawkeye's Avatar


LeonHawkeye
12.04.2012 , 01:21 AM | #52
Bump for justice because even a small portion of these changes would do a world of good for this poorly designed and terribly dysfunctional class. Simply not competitive PvP Viable.

Elyxin's Avatar


Elyxin
12.04.2012 , 11:46 AM | #53
I like all of them, with the exception of Run and Gun. your comparisons to snipers don't hold water. having the ability to cast any 3 abilities instantly every 9 seconds is an immensely powerful tool...the only reason you don't' think so is because you like the class. one instant attack and some resource savings 30 seconds is not even close to 3 instant attacks every 9 seconds.

Snipers only have one instant attack off of their KB, and that in itself is very powerful. your asking for almost a non stop application of abilities that have cast times for a reason. A merc with that ability would be able to insta cast everything they have 3/4 of the time they are in melee range. And the dps increase in PvE would be class breaking.

the idea sounds great, but in real life application it would break the class. we have cast times for a reason. even just tracer missile 3x instant would be over powered. I know you don't think so but it really would. the damage of those abilities, no matter how you want to compare them, is based on a cast time. to remove the cast time means unbalance. they would have to reduce the damage on those abilities to compensate, which would force PvE (as well as PvP) mercs to fight in melee range to keep their DPS up with other classes, which kills the reason for having them as a ranged class in the first place.

I am all for having a low tier ability like the sniper that gives us ONE instant cast. punch, fire fusion missile. bam. or fire off Rapid scan. how about making it insta-cast and auto crit? Imagine being able to knock back an opponent, immobilize them for a few seconds, and dump an instant fusion missile that's auto crit (with full stack of tracer on them) that is a nice buff, and opens up other doors as well, and not OP.

But your other ideas look good. Run and gun just pushes it over the top too much. It's the right direction though! I like the idea....I think the reason snipers/slingers can do well in PvP is due to the options they have to push instants out....but the talents are spread out in different trees, so they're not all bunched together...and they're mechanics force them to be useable only over longer periods of time (30sec CD on Pulse, as an example....or requiring 6+ crits in a row to negate the CD on ambush, etc).

If we wanted the concept of "run and gun" as a class mechanic, we could have certain skills have special abilities when run and gun is triggered...and then have a few skills that trigger R&G (like rocket punch, kolto missle, thermal Detonater). examples of R&G effect would be like tracer would auto-stack 5 heat signatures with R&G. Fusion missile is instant and auto-crit. Emergency scan also applies a HoT. rapid scan is instant and heals you in addition to your target.stuff like that. that could be a fun mechanic that isn't OP, because one use and it's gone. so once every 9 seconds in melee range you have a nice boost...but it isn't a class defining change.

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
12.04.2012 , 02:28 PM | #54
It isn't a class defining change, its a clutch mechanic to improve our ability when engaged by melee. For four and a half seconds after being engaged by melee, we would be able to cast without being interrupted. That's all.

Let me be perfectly clear. There doesn't need to be a tradeoff. We don't need a sidegrade, a tweak or a nudge. We don't need to give up anything. Mercs and Commandos need an honest-to-goodness shout-it-from-the-rooftops BUFF, because right now it is a horrible horrible AC for RWZs.
WFW - Waiting For Wildstar
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2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.04.2012 , 02:58 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Elyxin View Post
*snip*
first of all, you cant use rocket punch constantly, so your argument is already debunked right there. its a melee only ability on a ranged class, use your brain please.

and i have already suggested having an internal timer on Run and Gun. allow it to be proc'd only once every 15-20s, regardless of how many times you use Rocket Punch in that time. i guess i should add that to the OP, as people do not seem to read the discussion in this thread.

Elyxin's Avatar


Elyxin
12.04.2012 , 03:24 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
It isn't a class defining change, its a clutch mechanic to improve our ability when engaged by melee. For four and a half seconds after being engaged by melee, we would be able to cast without being interrupted. That's all.

Let me be perfectly clear. There doesn't need to be a tradeoff. We don't need a sidegrade, a tweak or a nudge. We don't need to give up anything. Mercs and Commandos need an honest-to-goodness shout-it-from-the-rooftops BUFF, because right now it is a horrible horrible AC for RWZs.
EDIT: just realized i missed your part about once every 15 seconds so i deleted my overly massive post. that is more reasonable. once every other rocket punch basically.

still, 3 instants can be pretty massive and abused if not careful. its not game breaking, but it is still class defining. Tell me any merc in their right minds that wouldn't spec into that ability. once every 15 seconds my healer could lay out 3 5-6k heals (or bigger) over the space of the time that it takes a sorc to put up 3 bubbles. that's potent. or i can unleash 2 tracers and a fusion missile. and that's every 15 seconds. even a sorc has to wait 20 seconds after putting their bubble one someone before they can do it again. you would be able to dump close to 20k heals onto a tank in 3 GCD's.

Again, I like the idea. but even with 15s 3 is still pushing it. I could see one ever 15s. my gunslinger can crack her instant out once every 30 seconds when she uses her KB....us getting one every 15 seconds isn't a bad deal at all

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.04.2012 , 04:24 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Elyxin View Post
EDIT: just realized i missed your part about once every 15 seconds so i deleted my overly massive post. that is more reasonable. once every other rocket punch basically.

still, 3 instants can be pretty massive and abused if not careful. its not game breaking, but it is still class defining. Tell me any merc in their right minds that wouldn't spec into that ability. once every 15 seconds my healer could lay out 3 5-6k heals (or bigger) over the space of the time that it takes a sorc to put up 3 bubbles. that's potent. or i can unleash 2 tracers and a fusion missile. and that's every 15 seconds. even a sorc has to wait 20 seconds after putting their bubble one someone before they can do it again. you would be able to dump close to 20k heals onto a tank in 3 GCD's.

Again, I like the idea. but even with 15s 3 is still pushing it. I could see one ever 15s. my gunslinger can crack her instant out once every 30 seconds when she uses her KB....us getting one every 15 seconds isn't a bad deal at all
you are correct that it would be class defining. there is a reason for it tho. and every Merc would want to spec into it for that very reason

bioware did a tremendously awful job designing the mechanics of Merc DPS. just piss poor bad. it is the root of all problems that Merc have in competitive PvP, and if real balance is ever going to happen, the basic mechanics need to change.

3 instants every 15s would not be overpowered. the amount of damage a tracer missile does wouldnt change b/c it was activated instantly. the main difference would be that Mercs would actually have a chance to fight back and defeat a melee opponent, rather than just hoping they can run away long enough for the melee player to lose interest.

you are still forgetting that a Merc would have to be in melee range to get that proc. yeah, 3 Rapid Scans in a row would output a lot of healing, but it would also require a lot of heat (3 in a row would put you at ~70 heat), and it also means youre in melee range of an enemy which as a healer you *never* want to do on purpose. the heat cost alone means this would not be something that you could do frequently; it would be good as a reactive mechanism for combating melee opponents; using it as an offensive tool is going to over-extend yourself and give melee opponents the advantage (they wont need to use a gap closer if you close the gap yourself)

Merc needs a significant buff. a side-grade, or shift of one strength to another strength, or whatever is just not going to cut it.

any change that would actually fix the problem is going to sound overpowered. merc is just that far behind

Elyxin's Avatar


Elyxin
12.05.2012 , 10:35 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
you are correct that it would be class defining. there is a reason for it tho. and every Merc would want to spec into it for that very reason

bioware did a tremendously awful job designing the mechanics of Merc DPS. just piss poor bad. it is the root of all problems that Merc have in competitive PvP, and if real balance is ever going to happen, the basic mechanics need to change.

3 instants every 15s would not be overpowered. the amount of damage a tracer missile does wouldnt change b/c it was activated instantly. the main difference would be that Mercs would actually have a chance to fight back and defeat a melee opponent, rather than just hoping they can run away long enough for the melee player to lose interest.

you are still forgetting that a Merc would have to be in melee range to get that proc. yeah, 3 Rapid Scans in a row would output a lot of healing, but it would also require a lot of heat (3 in a row would put you at ~70 heat), and it also means youre in melee range of an enemy which as a healer you *never* want to do on purpose. the heat cost alone means this would not be something that you could do frequently; it would be good as a reactive mechanism for combating melee opponents; using it as an offensive tool is going to over-extend yourself and give melee opponents the advantage (they wont need to use a gap closer if you close the gap yourself)

Merc needs a significant buff. a side-grade, or shift of one strength to another strength, or whatever is just not going to cut it.

any change that would actually fix the problem is going to sound overpowered. merc is just that far behind
You do make a convincing argument. based on that, It seems like it would be a good idea to at least get out there and test. Hope you realize that I too enjoy my merc thoroughly (though only for PvE, not into PvP), so im only arguing because it's needed to balance out the details of the changes. If they're solid changes, they survive scrutiny.

now, based on that...if it is such a critical element of Merc play, wouldn't it be better to add R&G as a baseline? The whole idea itself seems interesting to me, and really fits the "Mercenary" idea that I envision.Sorcs have their bubbles (seem very forcy-like), Ops have their instants and HoT's...the idea of being more flexible on the run sounds like a very nice way to separate the merc healing from the others (aside from the heat resource, which in itself is interesting). My concern about putting a talent in a single tree then makes that tree mandatory, and I'm a much bigger fan of making mandatory things baseline, with optional things or role specific things filling talent slots.

plus I think that having more flexibility on the fly could translate to us being more attractive in PvE (Sorc/Sages are well liked due to their bubble and Uber AoE heals....we need something other then a 4 man puff of green smoke). So why not just make it baseline? and what was your reasoning on 3? (not arguing at this point, but curious).

dejavy's Avatar


dejavy
12.08.2012 , 09:33 AM | #59
Nothing will be given. NOTHING. Remember my words. New fireworks to celebrate and some other crapy stuff. That's it.

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
12.08.2012 , 09:52 PM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by dejavy View Post
Nothing will be given. NOTHING. Remember my words. New fireworks to celebrate and some other crapy stuff. That's it.
Unfortunately you are closer to the truth than many of these hopeful, sunshine pumper posts.

I expect they will do something like give JetBoost a 50% increase in movement speed for 2 sec and the removal of all movement restrictions when used. But since they really don't want to buff Mercs, they will also increase the energy cost of JetBoost to something like 35. That way they can nerf Merc damage output after JetBoost is used. That would fit in well with how BW views Mercs.