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Mandalorians (Controversy)


YoshiRaphElan's Avatar


YoshiRaphElan
12.07.2012 , 10:37 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by BrianDavion View Post
the problem with Manados can be summed up in two words.

Mary Sue
The problem with Mandos can be summed up in three words.

Haters gonna hate.

Karen Traviss did not create the lightsaber-proof armor. She just used it. the Mandalorians are the focus of eight - count 'em, eight! - books. The Jedi, on the other hand, are stars of nigh to every other novel in the Saga. If a few novels don't focus on the Jedi but another culture - well, that culture must be mary sue-ish!!! Really? To each his own, I guess, but to me, the Mandos rock.

YoshiRaphElan's Avatar


YoshiRaphElan
12.07.2012 , 10:40 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Scathe View Post
I don't neccesarily agree with that, since if you limited the threat to a Jedi/Sith to other Jedi/Sith then they become just a bit too powerful.
Sorry for the double post, but this! If you want only Jedi/Sith to be threats to Jedi/Sith, then they're the Mary Sues, not the Mandalorians. The Echani and the Teras Kasi can fight the Jedi and win - why aren't they Mary Sues? Huh? The Mandos are skilled fighters who just happen to have the advantage of lightsaber-proof armor - which, by the way, can only take so many lightsaber blows, so it's not invincible.

But again - haters gonna hate.

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
12.07.2012 , 12:11 PM | #13
I think a lot of people have been over-reacting, the Jedi being threatened by Mandalorians actually makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

1. There are a few rare minerals that are resistent to lightsabers, that's canon. Mandalorian Iron has always been resistent. Aside from Yuuzhan Vong weapons, Jedi hadn't encountered weapons and armor that could stop Jedi Lightsabers in recent history, so the Mandalorian Iron would be somewhat of a shock at first.

2. The Jedi Order in Luke Skywalker's time had rarely encountered Mandalorians in an out and out fight, let's face it the Mandalorians were more familiar with the Jedi Order, their tactics, and combat techniques than the Jedi were about Mandalorian fighting techniques, tactics, and technology.

3. The emotional mindset of a Mandalorian in combat, HK-47 pointed out once that strong emotions could disrupt a Jedi's ability to ready one's mind. Part of a Jedi's ability to anticipate attacks comes from reading surface thoughts, the Jedi, while due to the Yuuzhan Vong and thus it could be argued that this was overdone in Karen Traviss's depictions, it is canon that it has some effect.

4. The Mandalorians are a Warrior Culture, they share some similarities to the ancient Spartans in real life, they weren't exactly just some idiot with a blaster. They learned how to fight and hunt as young children, would be somewhat above a standard trooper.

Now, we then saw the opposite in later books where Jedi mopped the floor with the Mandalorians, this also makes sense if you think about it. The Jedi Order gained knowledge about how the Mandalorians fought, the technology, etc. It stands to reason that the effectiveness of Mandalorians against Jedi went through the proverbial floor at that point because the Jedi knew what to expect and wouldn't be as easily surprised.

Additionally, we could have seen substancial improvement in Lightsaber Technology or the Jedi discovered flaws in parts of Mandalorian Armor that would allow a Lightsaber to punch through said armor more easily.

So all in all, I think people have seriously overreacted, and Karen Traviss's books made the Mandalorians out to be more than simple killing machines which actually makes sense. While Mandalorians were really effective warriors, they weren't machines, so in all honesty I don't see what the problem is.

Skapek-Skocap's Avatar


Skapek-Skocap
12.07.2012 , 12:35 PM | #14
Mandalorians in my eyes are above average Infantry units in the Sith or Republic, and still above or on par with Elite Units or Weak Jedi/Sith.

People dislike the Mandalorians of the Mandalorian Wars, because they could kill a Jedi, successfully. Oh my GOD! A Jedi gets killed by a non-force user... Well, let's take a look at Order 66 when a bunch of clones almost successfully wipe the Jedi off the face of the galaxy...

Mandalorians are trained from birth, and the ones that make it to mid-age are Veterans. They've been through many combat situations, and in this period, they fought both with and against the Sith and Jedi. Several people throughout Star Wars lore have figured out how to kill Jedi. Person of Note, Atton. When you fight an enemy for a long period of time, study everything about their culture and fighting techniques, as the Mandalorians do for the Jedi, you learn how to best them. Regardless, does this mean a Jedi is on par with every Mandalorian, no way. But there are Mandalorians out there who can kill Jedi, as well as Jedi getting sloppy in battle and being killed. Hell, Jango was noted to have "slain multiple Jedi with his BARE HANDS" At Galidraan, and it was approved canon.

As far as Beskar'gam goes, the Lightsaber resistant materials required to make it, are rare. Not every rank and file soldier of the Mandalorian Armor will be wearing this. Or they would have won both the Mandalorian Wars and anything following in the Great War. Mandalorian Veterans and Elites are the ones who typically have pure Beskar, and some only have few pieces of it.

Mandalorians to me represent a culture similar to that of Sparta. Regardless of what Traviss says, I do not agree with the drawing on the Vikings. Mandalorians are raised to fight from a young age, just as the Spartiatai were taken at the age of around 10-11 for formal military training. The parallels go on to say that Spartans, except for a few instances (Which they were highly dishonored for doing so.) surrendered. Mandalorians are typically the same way, drawing on statements during the Mandalorian Wars. Malachor V was a rare and dishonorable event that occured, just as the Spartan surrender on Plyos. Which leads to another point, that they can both be defeated and lose. They are not invincible, and it's pretty much routine the Mandalorians, although "winning in the beginning, are majestically and heroically triumphed by the forces of good!"

Overall, in the lore of Star Wars, Mandalorians are used a character or army's legitimacy. Revan, made legitmate by besting them in the Mandalorian Wars. The Jedi in the time of Dooku are seen killing them at Galidraan, one of the SWTOR famous Bounty Hunters, made her fame by Killing Mandalorians, and the smugglers that defeated the Mandalorian blockade, were legitmized by killing Mandalorians. And in my opinion, they deserve much more than this. Why people hate them so much, is a guess but to say people hate the "Fandalorian" types who kiss Travis' feet and say Mando's can walk over everything that moves in the Galaxy. Just like people thought after watching the movie "300" for the first time... But in the end, as I look back at the post I just made, I consider myself a heavy fan of the Mandalorians. But just because I respect cultures like theirs from history and what they fight for in canon.


** Edit **

Also, the New "Mandalorians", are not Mandalorians. Just as Sith is not Jedi.
Aka'an Tal - The Mandalorians - Bounty Hunter
-- Verda kat'taylir nass be trattok'o - A warrior knows nothing of defeat - Mand'alor the Indomitable --
Arsenal Mercenary - The Best Class in PvP since the Mandalorian Wars
Spoiler

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.07.2012 , 12:51 PM | #15
There's a lot of hate going around here about retconning, but we've got to remember that back in the day saying stuff like: "By the Force! I thought a lightsaber could cut through anything. The walls are barely scratched. The only thing that can resist a lightsaber is…Mandalorian iron!" Now we just gotta take that stuff with a pinch of salt

I also understand there is a lot of controversy surrounding the 'New Mandalorians' - but I think the hate is unnecessary, eventually the Mandalorians are going to get tired waging war against the Jedi and constantly getting put down and eventually try and form some sort of stability. And personally I think the idea of a traditional war like culture abandoning its ways and becoming pacifist, threatened by terroist groups such as Death Watch who wan't to see the return of their old ideals, is exciting, unique and interesting. Another Mandalorian cult causing trouble would be, in the words of Darth Zash "dull dull dull dull dull".

Jawa-Punter's Avatar


Jawa-Punter
12.07.2012 , 01:49 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Making Jedi like gods to the non-force user is bad for character development while making jedi-murdering Mandos greatly reduces the value of the Force.
It's ridiculous for jedi not to be invincible. If you have telekinesis you can just make the mandalorian put his gun in his mouth and blow himself away. Or he could just stop his heart. He could use the force to pull the battery out of his blaster. If the force can lift an x-wing I'm pretty sure it could squish the mandalorian into a little sphere the size of a golf ball. There's a million different ways a force user can kill you from another room before you even see him. Remember, he can sense you with the force so he can see you through walls. It's reasonable for other force users to be able to protect themselves from just instantly having their spines snapped with the flick of a finger, but there's no reasonable explanation for anyone who can't use the force killing someone who can, other than being surrounded by Ysalamirs. Not saying this would make movies, books or games better. I just mean that's how it would be in real life.

armphid's Avatar


armphid
12.07.2012 , 06:33 PM | #17
I should preface my comments by saying that I haven't read any of the books you're talking about. My Mandalorian experience has essentially come from the movies (which I'm not entirely sure even ever have the word Mandalorian come up in them), the 90's Star Wars books (when I was a kid), and the KotOR series of games. I'd also state that this is just my opinion; I feel it's got a solid basis but it is just that.

I know that for me, my biggest problems with the Mandalorians don't have anything to do with them fighting/killing Jedi or Sith. Jedi are mortal, death happens. I'm fine with Jedi and Sith being killed by normal people; particularly if they're careless/sloppy/weakened/etc. That's how fighting works, no matter how good you are.

There are two things that bother me about them.

First, it's that they spout a lot of what seems to be crap about honor and fighting worthy opponents and then act like cowards. I remember a companion conversation with Canderous Ordo in KotOR I where he glowingly tells you about some orbital dive attack he was in against a planet that had no defenses anyway and talks about that as an example of how great the Mandalorians are. (It has been a while since I played the game, but I think I recall the gist of that conversation) Okay, you can sucker punch people who aren't able to fight back; what does that have to do with honor or proving your strength?

Similarly, in their other conflicts that I know of (mostly in the games, including TOR) the Mandalorians surprise attack, usually when there's an existing conflict happening so they don't have to fight an already engaged professional military. As I recall the history of TOR, that was their involvement in the Great Galactic War.

That's just personal though, there are some people who like that kind of culture and they're welcome to it. The larger issue for me is that the Mandalorians aren't original. I'm going to get lots of hate for even saying this, but this warrior culture thing was done in mainstream sci-fi/space opera before Star Wars and that's my (personally) biggest problem with them; they're Klingons with a different color palette and not as tight pants. Fewer head lobsters too.

Warrior culture based on personal honor and glory in combat? Check. Talking big about fighting directly and with honor and then sneak attacking? Check. Idiomatic sayings based on those of Earth warrior cultures? Check. Their own made-up language? Check. Disdain for those who are "sneaky" or "underhanded" despite doing the same things themselves? Check. Strong 1st quarter team that fades in the second half? Check.

I think that's one of the big problems with the Mandalorians for a lot of people. They've been done before, some would say better, some would say worse; but either way they really feel like taking a chunk of someone else's universe and trying to shoehorn it into Star Wars where it doesn't necessarily fit.
"It's a shallow life that leaves few scars." -- Garrison Keillor

VigDiath's Avatar


VigDiath
12.07.2012 , 07:11 PM | #18
I've always looked at it like this. You have Jedi like Mace Windu, Yoda, Qui-Gon Jinn, Luke, Anakin...powerful Jedi who as long as they have their lightsaber defeating your average Bounty Hunter/Mando should not be much of an issue. Defeating a top of the line Mando with an unending aresenal of weapons, tactics and prowess at his disposal should be harder but not impossible. If the Mando gets the drop on the Jedi/Sith then give the advantage to the Mando. After all, Jedi/Sith are not immortal.

Now add your average Jedi versus your average Mando which in most cases an average Mando will still be higher than a special ops solider in most cases and this is when you will see the Jedi lose more often or at least come away from an encounter with a Mando outmatched if still living. Average Jedi to me are like red shirts in Star Trek. They have potential but have not fully reached that potential. Well in the Star Wars universe at any given era, the galaxy is filled with average Jedi who more often than not only survive encounters because of their connection to the Force. Otherwise they are outmatched in every other category.

Now to be fair, I love Star Wars because of the Jedi. But like any great story you find yourself being attached to other characters as well. I love Boba Fett and Jango Fett. I made it a point to read Karen Traviss' books and any comics I could get my hands on. But in the end, force users trump non force users unless that force user is just your run of the mill Jedi even if your run of the mill Jedi can take on 5 people at a time.
Jedi Covenant (The Baltimore Legacy)
Laaron - 55 (Shadow Tank) Eulora - 55 (Sage Healer)
Madmartygan - 55 (Guardian DPS) Skylaadawn - 55 (Sab Smug)
Akon - 55 (Carnage Marauder) L'aron - 53 (Sorc Healer)

Rikalonius's Avatar


Rikalonius
12.07.2012 , 10:36 PM | #19
It seems that many who complain about the Mary Sue'ing of Mandalorians, and it does happen, are all to keen to turn Sith Lords into virtual gods. If you look back to the first three movies, even Yoda was a bit winded after lifting that X-wing, and he didn't do it in a big hurry. Faster forward and we have The Force Unleashed, which did irreparable damage to the Jedi concept by having one pull a Star Destroyer out of orbit. At that point, they are pretty much invincible. Yay, everyone mentally m@sterb8 about super force users. Snooze.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of damage has been done to the Mandalorians as well. They too are often rendered free of weakness and pure as the driven snow. A warrior culture normally relies on slaves to do the jobs that warriors think they are too good to do. If everyone is a warrior, who is going to cook the food?

A Mandalorian one on one against a fully trained Jedi should be an unlikely scenario, but a team of Mandos working together should be a threat to a Jedi. That's the trade-off. Jedi are more powerful, but Mandos have greater numbers. Jedi lead good troops, Mandos are elite troops. It can all work in balance if it is written right.

Jawa-Punter's Avatar


Jawa-Punter
12.08.2012 , 12:47 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by VigDiath View Post
If the Mando gets the drop on the Jedi/Sith then give the advantage to the Mando.
You can't get the drop on someone who can see the future.