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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

LarryRow's Avatar


LarryRow
12.07.2012 , 03:26 PM | #1691
Keeva, I'm sorry, that's awful.

It sounds like you will gear up faster by leveling a new toon from scratch on the other faction...

Also, you can always make a separate warzone chat tab that doesn't include emotes or /say.
A classic sig that should not be lost:
Quote:
Stunned , pew pew hack slash , stunned , running backward circles, stunned cannot move, pew pew, break stun, 30 second snare, wha?!?!!? stunned, knockdown, ...less stun more pew pew and hacknslash please.

SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
12.07.2012 , 03:28 PM | #1692
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
I will happily admit to my toons being below-average geared (~950 exp right now) and skilled, at least compared to your group. But I am improving on both. Kiting is still my weakness, especially on my slow-*** commando. My sage is a bit better, but still way too SQUISHY if I can't break LoS. Fortunately 1.6 should help me close the gear gap...and well, practice practice practice.

But I will agree with you about the general pub pug population. At the risk of going into off-topic rant mode, I've been PvPing for less than a month, and even I know:

- If you are defending, fight at the node/door, and don't take your eyes off it.
- If you are attacking a node, try to get the defenders to spread out and get out of position.
- Call out incomings before they attack. Use AoEs and stealth detections to make stealthers work for it!
- Use your knockbacks to clear the end zone and ramps in huttball. But don't hang out in these areas unless you want to help the red leaping monkeys score, or are a gunslinger. Try to control the middle. Or get in position for a forward pass. Or at the very least, group up on the ball carrier to protect/heal them.
- Focus the healers first, one at a time, stun/CC the rest.
EDIT, one more thing:
- If there are 6 greens and 2 reds at your defended node, 2-3 need to start moving to your other node right away, as it is about to come under heavy attack.

And for god sakes, stop deathmatching all over the damn place!
lol, a tip for all the gunslingers/snipers out there, don Ever stand on the edge in huttball, I have stunned/leaped/scored in this fashion so many times, it's hilarious, but probably made those gunslinger/snipers regret sitting on the edge.

rest of those tips are solid. Also, another tip for the sorcs/sages out there who complain about being too squishy in pvp: don't drop an aoe heal while defending a node and consume yourself down to 10% health to max your healing score, because all it takes is 1 well placed stealth attack from a sin or op to 1-shot you.
Once you're in the hole, what's a few more feet?

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
12.07.2012 , 03:32 PM | #1693
@Jadescythe

If I implied that somehow I'm not okay with a reasonable matchmaking system, then I apologize, it wasn't my intention. I'm okay with any system that prevents extremely one-sided matches from happening, especially multiple times in a row. Like I said I have no issue with losing. I've lost matches before where I ended up doing decent damage and heals getting 6-7-8 medals. Win or lose, what's most important for me is that it should be a fun/entertaining/enjoyable experience. I know you can't enjoy every warzone and there are some pretty frustrating ones every once in a while. I'm okay with that, too. Nothing is perfect.

But warzone after warzone after warzone like that sucks all the fun out of PvP and it makes for a very negative impression. Especially for F2P who only get access to a limited amount of warzones.

Also the reason why I didn't mention superior coordination was because the enemy teams did not need any coordination, when they could kill people in a few seconds. What is there for them to coordinate really in a situation, where they have enough time and hp to fiddle with their party items.

So, yes I'd appreciate anything that doesn't put new characters into such a traumatizing experience. i'm happy that Bioware hopes that one day a better matchmaking system will oome but I'm concerned that it might come too late to save many potential players.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
12.07.2012 , 03:37 PM | #1694
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
If you met this team and it wasn't a premade group, would the outcome have been any different? Just because everyone is queuing solo doesn't mean that there will not be imbalances that occur.
I'm sorry, but you are wrong based on quantitative evidence. In theory, sure, an equivalently geared and skilled group could have the same performance even if they have never met before. But it doesn't happen that way...ever. Not in gaming, and not in life. If you don't understand that a group that plays frequently with each other, and knows each other's patterns and strengths, is going to perform better than an equivalent group of random players, I don't know what to say.

Even in PvE, where nothing changes from one run to the next, PuGs underperform guild groups for reasons that have nothing to do with gear or skill.

That said, I agree that neither wins nor losses are pre-determined in PvP. And eliminating premades from regular PvP, or isolating them into their own queue, are not desirable outcomes.

SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
12.07.2012 , 03:42 PM | #1695
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Tried to do my daily. Run into my favorite (and by that I mean the one that I hate the most because they always try to field 2 4man teams in the same warzone) premade.
*edited for space.

Honestly, if you don't have one already, roll an alt on the opposite faction. If it's one specific premade on a particular faction that's facerolling everyone and throwing jawa dance parties, then get an alt to 50 and when they're on, just switch sides. As the old adage goes, "if you can't beat them, join them." You'll be a lot less bothered by particular guilds once you fight along side them and can see how they operate, but that can't happen if you only have 1 50 on 1 faction (if you do only have 1, I don't know if you already have alts on both factions). As others have mentioned in this thread and others, time of day will usually determine which faction is dominating, thus, if you're consitently getting losses, either take the 4 losses for the daily and switch, or just switch after the 1 loss. That's probably the simplest solution. Though, on my pub side guild, there are people who refuse to EVER make imp toons, for whatever personal reasons and have specifically said so in chat, so for people like that, not much they can do if the imps are dominating pvp.
Once you're in the hole, what's a few more feet?

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
12.07.2012 , 03:46 PM | #1696
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
@Jadescythe

If I implied that somehow I'm not okay with a reasonable matchmaking system, then I apologize, it wasn't my intention. I'm okay with any system that prevents extremely one-sided matches from happening, especially multiple times in a row. Like I said I have no issue with losing. I've lost matches before where I ended up doing decent damage and heals getting 6-7-8 medals. Win or lose, what's most important for me is that it should be a fun/entertaining/enjoyable experience. I know you can't enjoy every warzone and there are some pretty frustrating ones every once in a while. I'm okay with that, too. Nothing is perfect.
Other than the true PUG stompers out there, I don't think anyone is against more balanced warzones. But in order to keep PVP at the optimal level of fun for everyone, separating groups and soloers is not the answer. There can be balanced games between PUGs and premades and that is my general point. Penalizing those who like to play with other people with longer queues certainly does not increase their enjoyment of the game. Matching different sized groups without PUGs is entirely too difficult and could cause significant delays in pops for all groups.

As long as your ability in a warzone (based of a number of factors) is equal to the other teams, then more than likely everyone will enjoy themselves, which I believe is your ultimate goal. The fact that some are grouped and some are not shouldn't matter.

I do apologize for the situation you find yourself in, I know it can be tough going against overgeared opponents in recruit gear. Class and role play a big part in how well you will fare, but I wouldn't recommend trying to finish the weekly alone in recruit gear. It's just too much to rely on your team to be up to the task of competing without knowing you will have an even match on the other side. I know you've posted before that you run in groups sometimes, so just take care of your daily when you're forced to queue solo and know that you can pay the other team back when you get to their level down the road.

Good luck!
I have opinions and stuff

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
12.07.2012 , 03:54 PM | #1697
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
I'm sorry, but you are wrong based on quantitative evidence. In theory, sure, an equivalently geared and skilled group could have the same performance even if they have never met before. But it doesn't happen that way...ever. Not in gaming, and not in life. If you don't understand that a group that plays frequently with each other, and knows each other's patterns and strengths, is going to perform better than an equivalent group of random players, I don't know what to say.

Even in PvE, where nothing changes from one run to the next, PuGs underperform guild groups for reasons that have nothing to do with gear or skill.

That said, I agree that neither wins nor losses are pre-determined in PvP. And eliminating premades from regular PvP, or isolating them into their own queue, are not desirable outcomes.
I will, respectfully, disagree. I would be in agreement if the other team was a full premade of 8 players, but you are looking at half the team not having anymore coordination than you. There are still incs that have to be called in chat. The other players still have to know who is being CC'd to truly coordinate like you would see in ranked. Focus fire has to be achieved through marking players or simply having knowledge of priority targets.

PUG problems in PVE are centered around gear issues and a lack of knowledge of fight mechanics. Any PUG I've ran with that has experience with the fight has not had any problems clearing the content. Any group that is learning has had issues, but has cleared content after experience or else we steamrolled through on the skill and gear of the experienced players.
I have opinions and stuff

Zhaker's Avatar


Zhaker
12.07.2012 , 04:04 PM | #1698
Quote: Originally Posted by Asunasan View Post
Creus I have to respectfully disagree. I think you probably aren't noticing that the imp win ratio has climbed so high because you get quite a few imp v imp matches, at least I know I do when I play my PT. During prime time the pubs can hardly win a match. I don't necessarily think anything needs to be done about it from a BW standpoint, but the pub pugs do need to step up their game (yes i'm aware the imps have some terrible pugs to, but its an epidemic for the pubs).
Err its both ways Asuna, main problem on both sides is bads, they never queue up to face each other.

If they did it'd be a pointless DM zerg fest with epeen stroking.

I remember 1 game where this happened on Void Star because people werent looking to cap the door they were looking to DPS the other bads. This was sorta fun till both sides ended with the highest damage being 200k....... I was a healer and I was too tired to try to cap door because nobody was helping me to cap *********** door.

I did about 100k damage as healer with 300k heals, and there was a 4 healers on the other team so their DPS was **** too and their heals was about 200k roughly each. To end it all I think about 10 ppl died but was the dumbest boring gay *** match I ever joined, oh we won because I think we killed more or something by 2.

If people think this is fun they should probably whack a dummy....

DeepFreese's Avatar


DeepFreese
12.07.2012 , 04:10 PM | #1699
Quote: Originally Posted by Asunasan View Post
Creus I have to respectfully disagree. I think you probably aren't noticing that the imp win ratio has climbed so high because you get quite a few imp v imp matches, at least I know I do when I play my PT. During prime time the pubs can hardly win a match. I don't necessarily think anything needs to be done about it from a BW standpoint, but the pub pugs do need to step up their game (yes i'm aware the imps have some terrible pugs to, but its an epidemic for the pubs).
That very well could be true. I do not notice it much, as I always queue with a premade normally full of good players to carry my ***. I know that I do not have trouble winning most warzones with pugs, but I chalk that up to me being in a premade with a bunch of good players. Also, as a healer I am not too focused on the other team we are playing. I don't check names, and I don't see if we are in fact playing another premade or not. All I know is press 2 for bubble stun
Creus
Robbs(Sniper) Robs(Assassin) Croozz(Jugg) Harata(Guardian) Se'an(Powertech) and Se-an(Marauder)
The Squirtle Squad[The Harbinger}

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
12.07.2012 , 04:21 PM | #1700
F2P has destroyed lowbie pvp too. Before F2P you would see some premades and players playing on their alts that were in just slightly above average gear and (just like at the start of this game) they were horrible players and without their optimized aug wh gear they sucked in lowbie pvp. It was one of the things that made lowbie fun when you were on your alts. SWTOR has a very low softcap on skill for all classes so these players pugstomp and think they are good. They then would go into lowbie and suck and state on the forums that it was only because lowbie is horrible.

Now, though they have full premades in augmented cartel gear running lowbie for long periods of the day. Add this to the fact that when pugging you have many f2p on your team and lowbie sucks. I can still top the chart easily but the amount of evenly matched teams has fallen greatly and almost every match is a sure win or sure loss from the start. Luckily most of my classes are 50 now and so I don't lowbie much anymore but man the last few days it really has sucked.

The gear cap possibilities have always been huge in lowbie and lvl only means anything on a couple classes due to bolster (I've leveled all my classes mostly in pvp and was usually the top from lvl 10 on) but it was never much of an issue until recently. My last couple lowbies I started gearing up some since I noticed that was the trend (they are still under 12.5k hp so not twinks by any means) but about the last week or so it has gotten crazy with either half of my team being 14k+ while the other team was mostly 11ks or vice versa. This does not make for fun pvp.

I like 1.6 and think that will help 50 pvp out a lot but with a lot of the pugstompers will have a lot of fun in sub-50pvp now and I really think swtor should do something to the bolster system so that gear means a lot less in lowbie. They should also add an aggressive hp softcap in lowbie.