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How much Accuracy are u loading for a Sin Tank

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sith Inquisitor > Assassin
How much Accuracy are u loading for a Sin Tank

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.06.2012 , 11:31 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
That is what he's saying.

Self-healing is a non-trivial part of our overall survivability, and the only method of improving self-healing is increasing HP pool.
Basically, after the 30/45/60 point (roughly), endurance and mitigation stats have equal value in terms of survivability contribution, and so you want to stack them evenly. However, the way gear is itemized actually carrots us to stack a lot more endurance than mitigation. The 27B mods have a substantially higher stat budget than the 27 (unlettered) mods, it's just that the stat budget is devoted primarily to endurance. Since endurance is of equal value to the mitigation stats at this point in the DR curves, the 27B mods provide a substantially higher survivability contribution than the 27 (unlettered) mods.

The same is not true of enhancements though. The low-endurance enhancements have almost exactly the same stat budget as the high-endurance enhancements. Thus, here you're better off stacking mitigation over endurance. Overall, your mods should all high-endurance low-mitigation (27B), while your enhancements should be low-endurance high-mitigation (Bastion and Bulwark).

Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
Regardless, the effective difference is minute, and KN's suggestions are predicated on the idea that you are gathering and spending Harnessed Darkness stacks as quickly as possible. If you are not good at maximizing your HD gain/spend, and/or you just don't give a hoot (which, let's be honest, many tanks, even serious raid tanks, don't), you're not going to be shockingly more squishy by stacking additional mitigation.
This is a very important point. If you have around 26k HP and your combat logs on an average boss fight show less than 200 HPS (including proc heal relic), you're probably not managing your self-heal ideally and my advice is not applicable.

Quote: Originally Posted by Omophorus View Post
Edit: KN is wrong about one thing, however, in that Assassinate has a 10% boost to Accuracy (due to the isSpecial flag). This does nothing to improve the value of Accuracy rating however.
Interesting. Given that bosses have only 10% defense though, wouldn't that indicate that special attacks should almost never miss? Combat logs don't seem to support that. I assumed it was only a 5% boost since my Spinning Strike seems to miss 4% of the time on average.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
12.07.2012 , 02:26 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Interesting. Given that bosses have only 10% defense though, wouldn't that indicate that special attacks should almost never miss? Combat logs don't seem to support that. I assumed it was only a 5% boost since my Spinning Strike seems to miss 4% of the time on average.
101% Special Accuracy. Between needing 100% to guarantee a hit, and then 10% defense chance to deal with, you should expect to see ~9% missed Assassinates/Thrashes, though the low usage count means the sample size is tiny and variance in miss rate will be huge.

Once your Accuracy passes 100%, you can't outright miss a mob, however they can still defend (via parry/dodge), and the reason DPS classes dependent on white damage go to ~100% base Accuracy is to push their Special Accuracy to 110% and negate that defense chance entirely.

The 10% defense chance is in addition to any innate possibility of missing via being below 100% Accuracy.

Edit: This is easiest to see/understand looking at a dual wielding class. Offhand accuracy never passes 100%, so you *will* see missed hits that are not dodged or parried because they never landed in the first place.

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
12.07.2012 , 12:59 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Interesting. Given that bosses have only 10% defense though, wouldn't that indicate that special attacks should almost never miss? Combat logs don't seem to support that. I assumed it was only a 5% boost since my Spinning Strike seems to miss 4% of the time on average.
It wouldn't.
It would indicate that melee special attacks get avoided by the bosses 10% (or 9% if you have +1% from companion buff) of the time. You would need 110% melee special attack accuracy for the special attacks to hit 100% of the time. Note that 110% melee special attack accuracy is reached at 100% melee normal attack accuracy, so you still need only 100% melee accuracy for the special attacks to not get avoided. Normal attacks (Saber Strike only) can still be avoided at that point.

If special attack accuracy was only +5% (as in 95% base accuracy) then you should expect them to miss or get avoided 15% of the time against a target with 10% defense chance, but that does not seem to be the case.



Force and tech attacks of course do always hit even without any accuracy rating and they do not benefit at all from accuracy over 100% (which is their base accuracy) since pve enemies, not even ops bosses, do not have any avoidance (resist chance) against them, (unless you are low level character trying to kill mobs over 5 levels higher than you)



Not that I think that the ingame tooltips are always completely reliable, but just look at your character sheet and move your mouse over your melee accuracy and read the on-mouse-over popup tooltip.

It should look like this:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...120719511.jpg/

So melee normal attacks have 90% base accuracy and melee special attacks have 100% base accuracy.
10% difference.

In this case I think the tooltip is correct.

As for the notion that operation bosses have 10% defense chance, I'm not so sure about that.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.07.2012 , 01:22 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Eternalnight View Post
As for the notion that operation bosses have 10% defense chance, I'm not so sure about that.
That's easy enough to test on the ops dummy. In fact, people have been doing precisely that since combat logging landed. 10% is a fairly well-verified number at this point.

As for the rest of the explanations, thank you! That clears things up quite a bit.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
12.07.2012 , 04:15 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
That's easy enough to test on the ops dummy. In fact, people have been doing precisely that since combat logging landed. 10% is a fairly well-verified number at this point.

As for the rest of the explanations, thank you! That clears things up quite a bit.
Not only is it verified on the dummy, it's also confirmed outright by the devs. It was several months back, in fact.

They explicitly said current bosses (and the dummy was built to represent them) have a 10% defense chance.

Neoforcer's Avatar


Neoforcer
12.07.2012 , 04:40 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Eternalnight View Post
Nonsense.

You want no accuracy rating at all.

The only attacks that benefit at all from are saber strike, trash and assassinate. They are not used often enough to make it worth having any accuracy.

All your force abilities will hit 100% of the time anyway and most part of your damage and even greater portion of your threat comes from those.

Missing a few saber strikes is never going to make noticeable difference.

Even if you did want more damage or threat, many other stats would benefit more.

You want all tank stats and no accuracy rating at all.
I would suggest you read here why having no accuracy is bad http://www.noxxic.com/swtor/pve/sith...ty-and-details

tanks wonder why they have to guard dps instead of healers since dps keeps pulling agro
Quote:
Bosses have a 10% defense chance which can be offset by 10% Bonus Accuracy for a total of 100%
As a tank you hit harder with 110% accuracy. That means me the dps wont pull off of you as a tank.

Btw this was tested in my guild by are tanks the boss has a 10% bonus to defense which is negated by 110% accuracy. Are guild tanks spent less time taunting off dps when the followed noxxic.com guide.

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
12.07.2012 , 06:02 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Neoforcer View Post
I would suggest you read here why having no accuracy is bad http://www.noxxic.com/swtor/pve/sith...ty-and-details

tanks wonder why they have to guard dps instead of healers since dps keeps pulling agro
As a tank you hit harder with 110% accuracy. That means me the dps wont pull off of you as a tank.

Btw this was tested in my guild by are tanks the boss has a 10% bonus to defense which is negated by 110% accuracy. Are guild tanks spent less time taunting off dps when the followed noxxic.com guide.
I would suggest you read the other posts in this discussion, as we have already explained many times over that Noxxic is wrong and why it is wrong.

Bosses do not have any defense chance against force and tech attacks so accuracy rating does not affect force and tech attacks at all!!!

Also force attacks are not the same thing as special attacks, like Noxxic falsely claims. Read the post above for more details.

They do have only defense chance against melee attacks. This requirement of accuracy applies to only melee attacks. Also read posts above for more details.

Also there is not even any such thing as defense against force or tech attacks. Defense applies to only melee/ranged attacks.

The avoidance against force/tech attacks is called resistance, which is 0 even for operation bosses.


Just look at this combat log:
http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlo...ayer/1#d=0,b=1

As you can clearly see, all force abilities show 0.0% avoids, meaning they did always hit.
And I guarantee you that was with 0 accuracy rating.

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
12.08.2012 , 01:43 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Neoforcer View Post
I would suggest you read here why having no accuracy is bad http://www.noxxic.com/swtor/pve/sith...ty-and-details

tanks wonder why they have to guard dps instead of healers since dps keeps pulling agro
As a tank you hit harder with 110% accuracy. That means me the dps wont pull off of you as a tank.

Btw this was tested in my guild by are tanks the boss has a 10% bonus to defense which is negated by 110% accuracy. Are guild tanks spent less time taunting off dps when the followed noxxic.com guide.
Every time someone quotes Noxxic, Jesus clubs a baby seal with a kitten.

They tend to get a number of things right, but every single guide for every single class has noteworthy mistakes. Quoting some guide from some faceless person about whom you know nothing (including their knowledge of the differences between their *** and their elbow) doesn't exactly make you look like an expert.

To re-frickin'-iterate. Assassins have 3 abilities which Accuracy has any impact on whatsoever. Saber Strike (pure filler for resource recovery, does not contribute meaningfully to DPS, HPS, or TPS). Thrash (used infrequently as a resource dump, and also not a major contributor to DPS, HPS, or TPS), and Assassinate (not usable until 30% on a target, by which time threat is so firmly established that it's totally moot).

Adding Accuracy to increase the ability to land Saber Strike and Thrash does jack squat to increase threat generation. Adding Accuracy to increase the ability to land Assassinate adds minutely to DPS, but by that point in the fight threat is a non-issue.

And to your other inane and uninformed points...

The reason why tanks need to guard DPS and not healers are very simple:
-Healing is SHOCKINGLY low threat. Yes, healers can and will pull threat on trash pulls, but the pulls either clear so fast or are properly CC'd, negating this as a concern.
-Melee DPS in particular pair high output with a lower "ceiling" at which they pull hate off you. A PT or Marauder has very high sustained DPS, obscene burst, and if <4m from a target (not always feasible to micro-manage distance, esp. on Marauder) will pull hate if their threat exceeds yours by more than 10%. This is very easy for them to do unless you are taunt stacking, which the situation and CDs may or make not make feasible in any case.

Noxxic magically fixing your tanks' performance:
-More likely that there were more fundamental mistakes going on which Noxxic got right, and they corrected after recognizing as errors (independent of any new errors introduced by relying on a shoddy source like Noxxic).
-Normal variance due to RNG intervention and the tendency for individuals (especially mediocre, uninformed, uneducated, or plain old ignorant individuals) to inflate the impact/import of an event with a small sample size of data.
-Gaining more gear and experience tends to yield better results regardless of reading guides. Unless you're sufficiently bad that you have no business tanking at all, you should learn from each encounter and remember some of the "gotchas" that will make you more successful in the future.

jacoboTN's Avatar


jacoboTN
12.08.2012 , 05:34 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Noxxic's info for shadow/assassin tanks is really, really bad. Their stat priority, for example, is completely wrong. More points in accuracy have a tiny, tiny contribution to tanking assassin DPS, due to the dominance of force attacks in our rotation. Best in Slot is the 91% accuracy that you get from maxing your melee tank. No one, not even DPS classes, should have 110% melee/ranged accuracy. Nothing over 100% matters in PvE, despite what Bioware's tooltips claim.

Here is the correct stat priority for assassin tanks moving into the Dread Guard tier:

Absorption (60%) >= Defense (30%) > Shield (65%) >= Endurance (27k) >>> Willpower > Power >>> Strength > Accuracy

Regarding endurance, once your mitigation is at this point, diminishing returns starts to hit really really hard. That, combined with the very high HPS of the low-thrash rotation means that endurance is very nearly a better stat than the mitigation stats, in terms of survivability contribution. Due to itemization quirks, high-endurance mods have a higher stat budget than low-endurance mods (thus, you're trading 1 point of mitigation for about 1.7 points of endurance). Because of this, all of your Dread Guard mods should be high-endurance (the 27B variants), while your enhancements should be low-endurance (Bastion and Bulwark).
I'm on the verge of getting my assassin to 50 and wanted to start reading up on this stuff.

Anywho, I take it when you say absorbtion at 60% that includes the base generator 20% as well, right? And I'm assuming you're applying the bases to defense and shielding as well? Just wanted to check. Also, are these stats typically achieved through augmenting or no? If they are which augments should be prioritized?
The Allgood Legacy
Tennessee ---- Advanced Prototype Powertech
Carolina ---- Medicine Operative
Avondale ---- Darkness Assassin

Eternalnight's Avatar


Eternalnight
12.08.2012 , 10:46 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by jacoboTN View Post
I'm on the verge of getting my assassin to 50 and wanted to start reading up on this stuff.

Anywho, I take it when you say absorbtion at 60% that includes the base generator 20% as well, right? And I'm assuming you're applying the bases to defense and shielding as well? Just wanted to check. Also, are these stats typically achieved through augmenting or no? If they are which augments should be prioritized?
Of course it would not even be possible to reach said percentages with the ratings alone.

But anyway you are missing some important things.

Your absorption without any absorption rating gear, is not just 20%. It is 24% due to additional 4% from skillpoints spent on Hollow.

Likewise your defense chance without any defense rating gear is 16% (10% base + 6% from various skillpoints spent in the skill tree), so even at 30% defense chance you have 14% defense chance gained from defense rating.


As for shield chance, note that any percentages given with Dark Ward activated should also include the bonus from wearing gear with set bonus. (speaking of which, assassin tanks should ALWAYS wear gear with set bonus)



As for the other things, augmenting should be done for defense rating and/or absorption rating, depending how much of each you have