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Needs harder content


Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
12.06.2012 , 08:03 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Sydexlic View Post
I agree with the OP. I've played MMOs for over a decade now, started in Everquest and played from WoW launch until I finally grew tired of it after killing HM Deathwing in Cataclysm. Everquest was some of the most fun I've had whilst raiding in an MMO. 72 man raids, extremely difficult and challenging encounters on an epic scale. I've done 40 man raids in WoW, I cleared the original Naxxramas in 40 man and I was in a top 50 in the world guild through all of TBC and most of WotLK.

I loved the WoW model of doing PvE, especially in TBC and to a lesser extent WotLK. It was HARD, very hard. You had to be dedicated and highly skilled to beat this stuff, even then it was a process of gradual refinements of strategy and play of 1% here and 1% there that finally gave you the edge to beat the fight, often after weeks or even months of attempts. My guild worked for weeks to beat Kil'Jaeden and M'uru, 100+ attempts on both of them. We loved every second of it too. We were fine when the encounters were subsequently nerfed too, I accept that not everyone has the ability, commitment or just patience to devote that much effort to beating an operations encounter.

I was hoping to see this level of challenge for TFB, we were disappointed. Everything was a 1 shot or a 2 shot, with only TFB itself giving us any real resistance. The only reason it took a 2nd night of attempts was due to one of our tanks having flaky net and us calling it due to that.

I was hoping EC NM would eclipse the challenge for TFB, it did...sort of. We took maybe 4 or 5 attempts to down ZnT, tanks not many more and we 1 shot Vorgath (well done tuning that one EAware). Again, only Kephess gave any real resistance, but we still downed him in the first week.

Granted, we're a strong group of players and we did clear the place 2nd in the world in 8m, but ... we really would love to sink our teeth into a meatier challenge. Even if you have to tune it down in the weeks after to make it more accessible, not everyone is going to be challenged by this luke warm content you're putting out there right now.
I strongly suggest your guild to try 16 man if you are in love with true challenge.
Ephesia, Level 55 Jedi Guardian
Tomb of Freedon Nadd (EU)
Member of Catalyst

Sydexlic's Avatar


Sydexlic
12.06.2012 , 08:12 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Ephesia View Post
I strongly suggest your guild to try 16 man if you are in love with true challenge.
We'd love to, Dalborra is a quaint little server, on the opposite side of the world. Our Wookies hang upside down in their trees and numbers are not looking so rosy lately. We've scheduled 16m raids but getting the numbers requires us fielding casuals and PvPers complete with their uber BM gears. Many of them quite inexperienced in all things PVE too. To top it all off, 2 of our core members have been having grave internet issues lately and further making matters trickier when it comes to putting together a competent 16 man group.

What would be ideal would be for Bioware to TEST their operations, balance properly and then put it live. Blizzard released a lot of ill-tuned encounters too, but they got it right most of the time, Bioware hasn't. Especially true when you compare how they've tuned 16m v 8m in the last 2 operations they've released. 16m TFB was vastly easier than 8m for the first 3 bosses, now the shoe is on the other foot for EC NiM, where 8m was a cake walk.

I accept they're not going to nail it exactly with the balance thing between 8m/16m and tuning overall, but surely they can do a better job of it than they have to date.

Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
12.06.2012 , 08:16 AM | #23
I disagree with you, in my opinion they are doing a very good job with the challenge level of 8 mans, and I think 16 mans are a tad too difficult. The amount of guilds already done full clears in NiM EC is still quite low in every server. They still pose a serious level of challenge to a lot of players in the game and keeps them busy. I believe, you are an exception.
Ephesia, Level 55 Jedi Guardian
Tomb of Freedon Nadd (EU)
Member of Catalyst

Sydexlic's Avatar


Sydexlic
12.06.2012 , 08:24 AM | #24
Like I said, they can meet all the needs of the players from the advanced to the novice, it just requires progressive changes to the encounters difficulty from launch until it's made accessible to all later on by a series of subtle nerfs week to week.

Whether they do this systematically with an increasing buff that causes NPCs to take 5% more damage that stacks up week to week, or by hand-tuning the encounters to achieve the same thing. That would give us hard-core players the challenge we crave and then allow everyone else their bite of the action when it's been made more accessible a couple of weeks after it goes live.

Surely you can see why that as a group, having cleared the content for the last 2 operations in the first week, we're very disappointed in the PVE Sw:tor is offering.

Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
12.06.2012 , 09:32 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Sydexlic View Post
Like I said, they can meet all the needs of the players from the advanced to the novice, it just requires progressive changes to the encounters difficulty from launch until it's made accessible to all later on by a series of subtle nerfs week to week.

Whether they do this systematically with an increasing buff that causes NPCs to take 5% more damage that stacks up week to week, or by hand-tuning the encounters to achieve the same thing. That would give us hard-core players the challenge we crave and then allow everyone else their bite of the action when it's been made more accessible a couple of weeks after it goes live.

Surely you can see why that as a group, having cleared the content for the last 2 operations in the first week, we're very disappointed in the PVE Sw:tor is offering.
In my opinion you should try to change your server (when it's available) or try to recruit like minded players for a piece in 16 man action, it really is a diferent level of challenge and I think is the "real" raiding in the game. I understand what you are saying though, but I think it would be a wrong tactic to make a boss only killable by the top 2-3 guilds in the whole game, even if it is for a week. Now 10-15 guilds? More like it.
Ephesia, Level 55 Jedi Guardian
Tomb of Freedon Nadd (EU)
Member of Catalyst

moonshoter's Avatar


moonshoter
12.07.2012 , 12:54 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Laagee View Post
There is no hard ops and there never has been. I remember being in a group for an mmo and spending 4 hours on a boss and it taking up to a month to clear it. If you are in a endgame pve guild in this game you can have it cleared within a week and on farm shortly after. This is not really a challenge to me. Just my thoughts and maybe I am alone with those thoughts. As for people getting there gear through the coms I just think it would be nice to see how good a player is through there gear. Right now you have no idea what a person has accomplished becuase anyone can get the gear through dailys.

As for being a bioware game, this is my first one so I really do not have anything to compare it to. I do know I really enjoyed World of War crafts pvp (Like AV and wintergrasp where we would fight to conquer to gain access to the instance) It just seemed more challenging then what swtor has to offer right now thats all.

And that was EQ 1 if I'm not mistaken ,that said MMO have come along way sense EQ 1 days ,,,, and they can't get much harder then Swtor is now and it is taking some a month to clear to last boss in HMTFB ,, I have no clue what kephess NIM IS like yet I'm stuck on the NIM tanks .. .. the players now a days are much more skilled at playing MMO then they were in the EQ 1 days etcc

FlyinSpaghetti's Avatar


FlyinSpaghetti
12.07.2012 , 01:04 AM | #27
How about implementing something like diablo 3's monster power where you can manually set the difficulty of the content even more.
Quote: Originally Posted by BaronV View Post
Thats no moon... thats a CARTEL COIN!

uniz's Avatar


uniz
12.07.2012 , 09:04 AM | #28
you will never have truly challenging operations in this game for a few reasons.

the pts is a joke when you can go there and learn fights before content is even released. or read walkthroughs for such before release also. it is open for everyone. there is no nda. it is for public relations/advertisement and not to fix bugs. dont say just dont read them as the guild idiot will always do so.

how can you have challenging content when every end game operation has a story mode when you can go in with over geared toons to clear and learn the basic fight mechanics? this is a wow mechanic which was copied and is a large part of the problem. the only reason to have this is the politically correct mentality of letting every player unskilled and bad a like to see end game content. in other mmos there is truly challenging end game content which some of the player base never seen at level but did so later on. it was difficult. it took months to go through as strats/walkthroughs were not published since the big dogs didn't do so. you knew who these were on each server by reputation and not some in game ranking system.

while it is true some content has yet to be cleared by most but then it really shouldn't be. most of the "A" players in this game have already left and moved on. stating such content is now not being cleared fast by the "B" and "C" player base left (which think they are "A" players) is misleading.

what makes this games' endgame challenging isn't content but rather rampant lag for anyone with a older machine, a ui that is below a 10 year old mmo standard and a player base that really are not as good as they think they are.

the solution isn't to become more like wow but to be less so as thus far it isn't working.