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[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
12.05.2012 , 11:09 AM | #71
Allison,

The problem is not that the majority of us think that you are utilizing KDR to create PVP-balance.

The issue is that your PVP community is feeling a dearth of genuine engagement from the Developers.

Jonathon's choice of mentioning KDR is problematic. First, I doubt a majority of the posters here accept that statement as factual, for the myriad reasons already addressed. Secondarily, it speaks directly to the concern the PVP Community has over balance when a qualitatively poor metric is given as Developer Proof of Balance.

A quick review of the PVP forums indicates three major stains of concern:
1) Marauder Rage Spec – Is the Smash "truly" working as intended, and its effect on balance
2) Sorcerer Static Barrier – Clearly a failed attempt to balance a weakened spec
3) DPS Mercs/Commandos – Nigh useless

Developer engagement with these issues has been silence on the first point after an initial "we are monitoring it" stage, an ambiguous recognition of the broken mechanic on the second point, and little more than a "we know its utterly broken and may be addressed in the future" reply to the Mercs.

Perhaps an increased Developer-Community engagement effort, which makes it clear to the community where BW thinks Balance is in PVP at the moment, and more concrete statements (which would require concomitant decisions about balance on BW's part) to the concerned portions of the community.

Yes, that will open you up to considerable criticism.
However, I would think that maintaining a clear and open dialogue with the otherwise dwindling community should be prioritized over the headaches of the already extant trolls and QQers.

Kaddie's Avatar


Kaddie
12.05.2012 , 11:13 AM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
Yes, that will open you up to considerable criticism.
However, I would think that maintaining a clear and open dialogue with the otherwise dwindling community should be prioritized over the headaches of the already extant trolls and QQers.
QFT.
I know LoL is a pvp game only but just look at the amazing communication they have around their game and its balance. I know it hasnt always been the case but gosh it feels so good to go on riot's website and actually know what will happen.

SpaniardInfinity's Avatar


SpaniardInfinity
12.05.2012 , 11:25 AM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
Allison,

The problem is not that the majority of us think that you are utilizing KDR to create PVP-balance.

The issue is that your PVP community is feeling a dearth of genuine engagement from the Developers.

Jonathon's choice of mentioning KDR is problematic. First, I doubt a majority of the posters here accept that statement as factual, for the myriad reasons already addressed. Secondarily, it speaks directly to the concern the PVP Community has over balance when a qualitatively poor metric is given as Developer Proof of Balance.

A quick review of the PVP forums indicates three major stains of concern:
1) Marauder Rage Spec – Is the Smash "truly" working as intended, and its effect on balance
2) Sorcerer Static Barrier – Clearly a failed attempt to balance a weakened spec
3) DPS Mercs/Commandos – Nigh useless

Developer engagement with these issues has been silence on the first point after an initial "we are monitoring it" stage, an ambiguous recognition of the broken mechanic on the second point, and little more than a "we know its utterly broken and may be addressed in the future" reply to the Mercs.

Perhaps an increased Developer-Community engagement effort, which makes it clear to the community where BW thinks Balance is in PVP at the moment, and more concrete statements (which would require concomitant decisions about balance on BW's part) to the concerned portions of the community.

Yes, that will open you up to considerable criticism.
However, I would think that maintaining a clear and open dialogue with the otherwise dwindling community should be prioritized over the headaches of the already extant trolls and QQers.
I'd really love to see this actually. I hope the next Q&A or next State of the Game Discussion focuses entirely on PvP. I'd wager a guess that PvP remains one of the most popular components of the game -- I think it's time to throw the PvP crowd a bone and discuss some of the changes you've got in store. Ancieny Hypergates and Elite War Hero in 1.6 is really the first content the PvP has gotten since 1.2 in April (War Hero, new Expertise curve, Novare Coast, ton of class balanaces). We also know that you've got something cooking for Ilum for the anniversary of 1.1 and it seems, at least based on the patch notes thus far, the soonest we'll see class changes is in 1.7 (which will be January/Feburary, presumably).
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AllisonBerryman's Avatar


AllisonBerryman
12.05.2012 , 11:32 AM | #74 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
Allison,

The problem is not that the majority of us think that you are utilizing KDR to create PVP-balance.

The issue is that your PVP community is feeling a dearth of genuine engagement from the Developers.
IceHawk - thank you for posting your feedback in such a constructive way. I don't have answers to all of your concerns right now, but I want you to know the community team is always working to escalate concerns and issues to the developers and get responses when we can (when we're sure of a course of action, have feedback requests, or have any updates to an issue). I mostly wanted to call out your post as a really model post for constructive feedback. We'll definitely continue working to bring more answers to questions and concerns.

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!

cycao's Avatar


cycao
12.05.2012 , 12:06 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
IceHawk - thank you for posting your feedback in such a constructive way. I don't have answers to all of your concerns right now, but I want you to know the community team is always working to escalate concerns and issues to the developers and get responses when we can (when we're sure of a course of action, have feedback requests, or have any updates to an issue). I mostly wanted to call out your post as a really model post for constructive feedback. We'll definitely continue working to bring more answers to questions and concerns.

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!
While I can only speak for myself, all I want is little updates on things that are in the works or any future plans you have towards PvP. I think the main reason I kept my sub was to check out this new warzone. Its the little things that keep players going.

TyrellJonez's Avatar


TyrellJonez
12.05.2012 , 12:10 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
IceHawk - thank you for posting your feedback in such a constructive way. I don't have answers to all of your concerns right now, but I want you to know the community team is always working to escalate concerns and issues to the developers and get responses when we can (when we're sure of a course of action, have feedback requests, or have any updates to an issue). I mostly wanted to call out your post as a really model post for constructive feedback. We'll definitely continue working to bring more answers to questions and concerns.

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!
I'm a merc since launch. I have tons to complain about. However, Icehawk is right. I would like more engagement from the developers and the fact we got 2 posts from you so quickly in a single thread is a step in the right direction. We just want to be heard, and thats not asking too much.

If I may make a suggestion, or rather steal an idea, why not have class advocates? Dedicated players of a single AC who listen to their respective individual communities and complie bugs/fixes/suggestions into a single stickied thread at the top of each AC forum? It would make it far easier to both community and develpers to see what issues need to be addressed. The community will see the top issues and all current feedback from developers. Its a win-win scenario. Just a thought. =)
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Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
12.05.2012 , 12:32 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
IceHawk - thank you for posting your feedback in such a constructive way. I don't have answers to all of your concerns right now, but I want you to know the community team is always working to escalate concerns and issues to the developers and get responses when we can (when we're sure of a course of action, have feedback requests, or have any updates to an issue). I mostly wanted to call out your post as a really model post for constructive feedback. We'll definitely continue working to bring more answers to questions and concerns.

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!
Yeah, I'd just like to point out that the mess this community is in, and the vitriol spouted on these forums (part of which I'll admit I participate in) is a largely self-inflicted wound on your (BW's) part. The lack of communication has turned questions into rants.

I get that you want to 'reward' good behaviour, but if you continue to skip the threads and posts that have over time become heated (or worse), then you'll just let the wounds fester. You have a lot (and I mean a LOT) of damage repair to do. Fix the problems with communication rather than sulking and taking your ball home (again, not aimed at you personally).

On to the meat of the issue:

Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
Everyone, it's important to remember that the answers Jonathan gave are just a few examples of metrics our analytics team looks at for certain specific purposes. Class balancing overall is much more complicated than looking at a couple stats - these were just a few examples of things the analytics team looks at and it wasn't intended as a comprehensive deep-dive into PvP balancing. It also wasn't a statement that we feel everything is completely perfect. We're always looking at player feedback, testing, and much more to to adjust the classes, and will continue to do so.
Evidence STRONGLY suggests otherwise. Balance is not improving. The difference between the most and least optimal classes is larger than it has ever been, and CC, considered by many to have long been out of control was made worse. The devs don't seem to get what is obviously wrong to anyone who spends any real amount of time PvPing - which has caused, and continues to cause a great deal of frustration. It is like they are flying blind - and posts about statistics and their use are an obvious target.
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islander's Avatar


islander
12.05.2012 , 12:34 PM | #78
Class advocates seldom help long term. Now, if they came up with a small committee (private) of opinions to solicit, that might be more useful.

Still, if the dev staff (someone) is spending about 30 minutes a day reading through the PvP forum, over the course of a few weeks they should have no diffuclty seperating the actual reality from the QQing that makes up 90% of this forum.

Oh, and I agree with the last paragraph of Jherad's above.
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Joesixxpack's Avatar


Joesixxpack
12.05.2012 , 12:55 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post

Also - thanks for the suggestions on a State of the Game or Q&A dedicated to PvP. I can't promise anything, but will bring up the feedback!
+ 1 for State of the Game and Q & A dedicated to PVP, an excellent idea.
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TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
12.05.2012 , 01:46 PM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by islander View Post
Class advocates seldom help long term. Now, if they came up with a small committee (private) of opinions to solicit, that might be more useful.

Still, if the dev staff (someone) is spending about 30 minutes a day reading through the PvP forum, over the course of a few weeks they should have no diffuclty seperating the actual reality from the QQing that makes up 90% of this forum.

Oh, and I agree with the last paragraph of Jherad's above.
Great points, I agree with them all!

I really like your suggestion of a small (private) committee as well. I think having several players, representing all classes and skill levels, would be best, but that may be too large of a pool - 8 minimum. Selecting 1 person narrows the feedback to only that players perspective. I'd love to see the opinions of players starting PvP (basically the challenges they see), players who casually PvP and those who have mastered it (top Ranked players). Have them sign NDAs and make a private forum for them.
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