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[Guide] Mad Maul 1.4


Talon_Starfire's Avatar


Talon_Starfire
12.03.2012 , 06:25 PM | #21
Is Mad Maul usable for both PvP & PvE?
Thanks
May the Gray Jedi Order Prevail Server: Prophecy of the Five
Looking for Sith guild.
Jhornak - Sith Assassin Zarchon - Jedi Shadow Cadezann - Smuggler Vistani -Trooper

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
12.03.2012 , 06:34 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by PlagaNerezza View Post
Doing damage to an opponent breaks our stealth. From the skill Stealth "Most Hostile Actions prematurely end the effect".

I don't like that you don't take creeping terror and I see no reason you don't take insulation other than stupidity. Not taking insulation in pve might make sense in pve to skip mobs, but has only a complete fool would go into pvp putting a priority of stealth movement speed. You don't get movement speed outside of stealth with that skil. It puts you at about 95% movement speed while stealthed. You might be forced to guard nodes in pvp, but using a build like this wouldn't be a preference. If you are node guarding alot don't you think you should spec into the node guard build?

I dropped 500k in pure madness using procced mauls and DoTs in voidstar last night. Its a great healer pressure spec because you can force the healer to split the healing between himself and his guard.

I did that in the 3/7/31 madness spec. I had no force management issues to need the fade. You get 3% more critical damage (HUGE!) and 18% more damage on your spamable DOT. My creeping terror its hard. I get 2% healing and the additional DoT. I don't mind maul and madness. Its a solid way to play the assassin. Going to 27 points in madness and saying ya creeping terror sucks is insane.

Forget that its a perfect skill to setup your maul strikes with its 2 second root. Forget that you are still running a DoT spec a 2 second freeze so you can keep breaking LoS and/or keep range.

I said I don't like your hybrid, but your guide needs to at least tell readers that using force cloak after doting up someone will almost always result in you exiting stealth on your next DoT tick.
Dots don't break stealth, You don't get 18% increased DOT damage via Charge Mastery. 500k splash damage is not always ideal for WZ's. Creeping Terror is a weak dot, the root is nice, but I would rather have Induction+Darkswell. 4% damage mitigation on an already squishy class is not going to help. You are knocking Mad Maul and you never even tried it. Mad Maul has even less force management issues because of Darkswell.

You are tunnel visioned into relying on defense and not understanding what Mad Maul is, it is a completely different play style and there is no way in hell a Darkness fan boy is going to go into a WZ with Mad Maul and like it right away.

Once again you are not reading anything that I post. You are saying the same things over and over and I already corrected you. This is not an ideal spec for pvp, it is fun for a certain type of player. I am not claiming that this spec gives you the best results in pvp. Stop arguing against points that I am not even making. Please actually read my guide and my rebuttals with an open mind.

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
12.03.2012 , 06:35 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Talon_Starfire View Post
Is Mad Maul usable for both PvP & PvE?
Thanks
It is not ideal for pvp but can be very fun of played correctly. In pve it is very usable, it will give you the best dps Assassins can do.

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
12.03.2012 , 06:44 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by PlagaNerezza View Post
24/17/0 is about tanking in warzones. Its not for everyone and I don't tell people its the "best" build. I run a shield and do it for survivability and mitigation of damage. Whirlwinds speed cast has its use mostly its a stealth cappers build. Its not like the skill goes away its just on a cast timer. I use it to bug the enemy back row while guarding my healers. As to death field. You have to decide as a guard/tank. Do you want a stronger hitting maul and more defense or more utility. I will tell you that 24/17/0 is a great huttball carrier. I like deathfields multiple cap interrupt at range. Its good damage. Chain lighting is not as good as induction. If you decide do it on death field. Do you need it and how much tanking/guarding will you do in a warzone. If your stealth capping look at a madness/darkness build.
Plaga pls know that I am not blindly defending my position and trying to counter you just because you don't agree. I am happy that Assassin has a play style that you enjoy so much. If you are having success exploiting every defensive option Assassin has then go rock it. Just know that I do not think Mad Maul is the best pvp option, I have stated it many times. You really don't have to tell me about what specs are good, I still rock them all. I still go in WZ's as 23-1-17, 0-14-27, 0-28-13, and even 23-14-3, I play these specs all the time, and some of these specs I have played for weeks and months at a time. I do know them very well. Once again my guide was directed at pve, with a pvp option if you will.

Talon_Starfire's Avatar


Talon_Starfire
12.03.2012 , 07:15 PM | #25
Is this spec still viable in 1.5?
Thanks
May the Gray Jedi Order Prevail Server: Prophecy of the Five
Looking for Sith guild.
Jhornak - Sith Assassin Zarchon - Jedi Shadow Cadezann - Smuggler Vistani -Trooper

PlagaNerezza's Avatar


PlagaNerezza
12.04.2012 , 10:41 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Xethis View Post
Plaga pls know that I am not blindly defending my position and trying to counter you just because you don't agree. I am happy that Assassin has a play style that you enjoy so much. If you are having success exploiting every defensive option Assassin has then go rock it. Just know that I do not think Mad Maul is the best pvp option, I have stated it many times. You really don't have to tell me about what specs are good, I still rock them all. I still go in WZ's as 23-1-17, 0-14-27, 0-28-13, and even 23-14-3, I play these specs all the time, and some of these specs I have played for weeks and months at a time. I do know them very well. Once again my guide was directed at pve, with a pvp option if you will.
In PvP gear: My stats for primary combat skills in the 3/7/31.

DoTs
Discharge: 3081 Energy
Creeping Terror: 2173 Internal
Crushing Darkness: 1767 kinetic

Damage:
Assassinate: 3011-3428 kinetic
Maul: 2308-2627 kinetic
Thrash: 722-822 x2 kinetic
Death Field: 1835-1899 internal
Force Lightning: 3155 energy
Crushing Darkness: 1196-1260 kinetic
Shock: 1526-1590 energy

Overcharge Saber: 100% damage increase on Discharge for 15 seconds.

So a 3k DoT with the ability through Overcharge to make it 6k that you can spam on people for 15 seconds is not worth adding 18% damage to the ability for pve or pvp? I will ask what you think of that especially in PvE without the ability for the NPC's to be adaptive.

I wonder how you think my 2k internal damage dot is weak. That is without any critical ticks with death marks. Against armored boss with very high mitigation skills.

I am wondering in pve if you've parsed out your dps outputs from a standard madness spec to use induction and have an improved force regeneration. I regularly in tank with induction in pvp hit my proc'd mauls for 4-4.8 k. I assume your close to those results.
"At last we will have our revenge" -Darth Maul
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RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
12.04.2012 , 11:55 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by PlagaNerezza View Post
In PvP gear: My stats for primary combat skills in the 3/7/31.

DoTs
Discharge: 3081 Energy
Creeping Terror: 2173 Internal
Crushing Darkness: 1767 kinetic

Damage:
Assassinate: 3011-3428 kinetic
Maul: 2308-2627 kinetic
Thrash: 722-822 x2 kinetic
Death Field: 1835-1899 internal
Force Lightning: 3155 energy
Crushing Darkness: 1196-1260 kinetic
Shock: 1526-1590 energy

Overcharge Saber: 100% damage increase on Discharge for 15 seconds.

So a 3k DoT with the ability through Overcharge to make it 6k that you can spam on people for 15 seconds is not worth adding 18% damage to the ability for pve or pvp? I will ask what you think of that especially in PvE without the ability for the NPC's to be adaptive.

I wonder how you think my 2k internal damage dot is weak. That is without any critical ticks with death marks. Against armored boss with very high mitigation skills.

I am wondering in pve if you've parsed out your dps outputs from a standard madness spec to use induction and have an improved force regeneration. I regularly in tank with induction in pvp hit my proc'd mauls for 4-4.8 k. I assume your close to those results.
You sir are an idiot. I suggest you go and learn what Overcharge Saber actually does before coming here and spouting garbage. That and using tooltips to judge how much damage your attacks do, I mean really?

Here, because I doubt you could do it yourself:

Overcharge Saber
Instant
Cooldown: 120s
Overcharges your current lightsaber charge for 15 seconds, increasing the damage and healing dealt by all Charges by 100%.

That means the little bits of energy damage that have a 50% chance to proc while lightning charge is active are what is being increased by 100%. Nothing whatsoever to do with Discharge. I've actually taken OS off my main bars, as I do not do high enough level PvE for it to be necessary to gain that little extra DPS, and it's not even worth the time to activate in the heat of PvP combat.

I'll say it again, actually try the freaking spec out before coming in here posting garbage to defend your biased opinions.
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion

Dierdrea's Avatar


Dierdrea
12.05.2012 , 02:47 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Nuzzar View Post
Hey there,

tried your build out of curiosity but it seems behind to vs. a regular madness rotation.

Here are 2 10 min parses on op dummy for each build. Same buffs and everything. I guess its save to say I am much more used to my regular rotation but I don't think i missed much on yours to be equal to 70dps lost.

Regular Madness

Mad Maul

I am pretty much BIS in that Toon.

I was really hoping for something new to be finally able to beat maras, snipers and PTs more, but I am afraid this isn't it =/

Edit: BTW discharge dot & DF Timer are NOT the same - u lose DPS if u reapply the dot before it runs out (as in every 15 sec instead of 18)
Did some testing too for a while and I have to agree with Razz here. I have ran your spec for pvp and I personally love it as a fun hybrid build. I get to dot up everyone and then do mauls.

For pve, the problem of this build vs pure madness build is that it doesn't really add anything new, it merely changes dps potential of the skills around. A few broad points:

One big limitation when starting madness dps is making mistakes and run out of force. Razz has his rotations down pat, he is not likely to run into force starvation issues and his dps won't be lowered by mistakes. Mad maul, with force regen ability, actually lowers the difficulty by allowing mistakes and then making up for it by the abundant force. This is a much friendlier build for sure.

That being said: While it is great to be able to thrash non stop, one thing I noticed while practicing mad maul is that when I am using blackout and force cloak I am storing a lot of force. Sure there is no danger of going into starvation but the GCD limits me from doing anymore. I am pretty much certain with my pure madness rotations that I am squeezing out everything and keeping my energy as low as possible to add in the next hit. Throw the whole saber strike under 50 force nonsense or the like out of the window, the key is not to be starved to force a change in the next skill you want to hit. Saber strike when you really need to do that next skill and force is almost there.

Thrash does the same damage in either build. Your maul hits harder in mad maul but pure madness has stronger dots and one additional dot. Using Razz's log as a comparison, mad maul's maul did 37 dps over the maul in pure madness. Creeping terror's 200 dps was exchanged for 160 more dps from more thrashes. Just from his log, the dps from these skills actually equaled out. However, all the other dots were hitting harder in pure madness, that may account for the difference in dps between these two logs. Of course, these are two logs but I pretty much read the same things in my practices. The problem is the hated GCD, sure we got more force, but we can't spend it.

BUUUUUTTTTT: the force regen skills will come in handy during 30% phases. This isn't going to be shown on logs because we can't use execute on dummies, but mad maul should have a significant easier execute phase and this may add to the dps potential. I can't test this as my raids are over for the week, but kind of interesting to think about.

In addition, creeping terror is not as bad as everyone think it is.

1. It is a great "distance closer," can throw it on the move and away from targets. In instances, force actually isn't as bad as on dummies because you are moving and regenning and can't spam skills. Thrash is so close ranged that a lot of dps will be lost on mad maul spec when Toth jumps away, tank pushes you away, running around on Kephass, running around in TFB.

2. A test you can do yourself: go deathfield a dummy, then drop a creeping terror for 20 force. See how much damage that does in pure madness spec. Then get UK up, and thrash (23 force) a few times (same with both spec so no need to change spec). The creeping terror ticks with deathmarks for 1 GCD will do more damage than thrash will with UK in 1 GCD. Take away deathmarks, creeping terror still edges out. Hardest I have seen thrash dual crit on a raid boss is around 1600x2=3200 damage. Creeping terror does exactly 7 ticks over the 19 second spam and each tick hits for 400-600 and crit between 800-900. Do the math and think about RNG with around 30-40% crit. Internal vs. weapon damage, that is important too.

TLDR for huge wall of text:
This is actually an easier build to run for pve dps and is definitely viable for raid, I have recently seen a lot of sins and shadow climbing logs but we still aren't there yet compared to the uber dps classes. Mad maul is going to work out about the same as pure madness if not just a little less, it does make execute phase a lot easier though!

As an last add: shocked (force) in log equals to discharge ticks, lightning charge is the saber charge affected by overcharge saber and crushed (force) in log is the crushing darkness ticks. Surprisingly, this is not very well known.

iesnbold's Avatar


iesnbold
12.05.2012 , 06:19 AM | #29
I would be interested in knowing how much you parse for both MM and full Madness, I do substancially lower dps in MM, and I've played the spec a fairly long time in non-rated WZ., and was very much inclined to believe that it could outdps full madness in PVE.

I feel like we are wasting a ton of non-dps skill points only to get +30% crit dmg on maul and out of steath blackout. Sure we are now able to have near 100% UK uptime, but I think it benefits only Maul and Assassinate. We do give up 6% dmg increase on thrash which is 25-30% of our dps, to gain +10% bonus damage, that seem to breakeven for thrash. We gain a global by not having to refresh CT but it's lost to the UK refresh. In term of DPCT I don't think that shock+ increased maul bonus and crit damage outdps CT by a significant margin, if at all. And we lose 3% force crit and 10% crit dmg on DF and dots. Also without CT, more of our Deathmark are being eaten by CD, which ticks REALLY low compared to discharge and CT.

Like it has been said before, the only time we gain something is during 30%- phase, where we gain good damage on a 6sec CD huge hitter and longer burst thanks to dark embrace. I can imagine in this case it might pull slightly ahead, and it is not insignificant since execute phase are important. So if you could execute the dummy once you've done X damage, I guess this spec might not be so far from full madness, but would still lag fairly behind in raid environment with movement, non-dps phases, target switching etc.

Dierdrea's Avatar


Dierdrea
12.05.2012 , 11:29 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by iesnbold View Post
I would be interested in knowing how much you parse for both MM and full Madness, I do substancially lower dps in MM, and I've played the spec a fairly long time in non-rated WZ., and was very much inclined to believe that it could outdps full madness in PVE.

I feel like we are wasting a ton of non-dps skill points only to get +30% crit dmg on maul and out of steath blackout. Sure we are now able to have near 100% UK uptime, but I think it benefits only Maul and Assassinate. We do give up 6% dmg increase on thrash which is 25-30% of our dps, to gain +10% bonus damage, that seem to breakeven for thrash. We gain a global by not having to refresh CT but it's lost to the UK refresh. In term of DPCT I don't think that shock+ increased maul bonus and crit damage outdps CT by a significant margin, if at all. And we lose 3% force crit and 10% crit dmg on DF and dots. Also without CT, more of our Deathmark are being eaten by CD, which ticks REALLY low compared to discharge and CT.

Like it has been said before, the only time we gain something is during 30%- phase, where we gain good damage on a 6sec CD huge hitter and longer burst thanks to dark embrace. I can imagine in this case it might pull slightly ahead, and it is not insignificant since execute phase are important. So if you could execute the dummy once you've done X damage, I guess this spec might not be so far from full madness, but would still lag fairly behind in raid environment with movement, non-dps phases, target switching etc.
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200bcZfZcMfRrbkrfz.2 That is the pure madness spec I run in TFB, still keep shock and UK, the only difference between it and mad maul is trading more force regen and harder mauls vs. stronger dots and CT. UK (benefit thrash too) should be up for as long as possible in either spec and should not be hard to keep up. Someone told me about TOR assistant and it really helped in keeping track of buffs and dots.