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[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
[XXX] Answers Questions Regarding Statistics
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Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
12.04.2012 , 07:38 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
except that 9/10 times game metrics are not representative of what is actually going on.
Not having a go, but it did make me laugh to use imaginary statistics to back up an argument that statistics are useless.

Personally, I find it reassuring that devs are trying to find and use hard data to make decisions based on reality rather than instinct and rumour (also known as ignorance and prejudice). If they went by what is being shouted about on the forums it would be like changing government policy day to day depending on whatever today's tabloid fad was.

The trick is in the interpretation. They have to decide which figures tell them something useful, and what the figures are actually telling them. It's easy to get the wrong end of the stick. The hypothesis given above that (maybe, don't have actual proof I'd point out) dps mercs/commandos could look like they're performing better because only skilled holdouts are still playing them. Maybe you could look at the valour (for pvp time played on a char) to see if the high-scoring mercs are using experience to match noob sents.

Point: attempting to base decisions on reality rather than prejudice = good.
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cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.04.2012 , 07:41 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
Not having a go, but it did make me laugh to use imaginary statistics to back up an argument that statistics are useless.

Personally, I find it reassuring that devs are trying to find and use hard data to make decisions based on reality rather than instinct and rumour (also known as ignorance and prejudice). If they went by what is being shouted about on the forums it would be like changing government policy day to day depending on whatever today's tabloid fad was.

The trick is in the interpretation. They have to decide which figures tell them something useful, and what the figures are actually telling them. It's easy to get the wrong end of the stick. The hypothesis given above that (maybe, don't have actual proof I'd point out) dps mercs/commandos could look like they're performing better because only skilled holdouts are still playing them. Maybe you could look at the valour (for pvp time played on a char) to see if the high-scoring mercs are using experience to match noob sents.

Point: attempting to base decisions on reality rather than prejudice = good.
that was kind of my point, and hence why i posted that Mark Twain quote. statistics are the devil.

you are right tho. one single metric does not provide any kind of a clear picture. you have to look at all metrics, develop some good crosstabs, and then try to understand what is really going on based on how the metrics are related/unrelated.
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Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
12.04.2012 , 07:49 PM | #53
I am not surprised at the use of statistics. They've been doing this for some time.

What I AM surprised at is how readily Jonathan Crow has admitted they are STILL using those metrics for PvP balance. Now. In an MMO with some of the worst class balancing I've seen in a LONG time. Balancing which seems to be getting worse patch by patch.

It's like sitting on the prow of the Titanic talking about how she's practically unsinkable as she slips beneath the waves.

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Kurvv's Avatar


Kurvv
12.04.2012 , 08:58 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
This is me thinking here- if I had a game that was honestly balanced, and I honestly felt like my metrics supported my balance- I'd be happy to show it because it would quell a large chunk of the unrest. It's hard to support crying nerf or buff for classes when you have available stats that disprove the people asking for those things. However- when there's no stats you're stuck with everyone spouting opinions which are supported at best by skilled play, or at worst by 'last WZ I got pwnd by this class NERF!!!'.
This assumes the unrest is caused by people capable of recognizing that statistics disprove their point. IMO you're overestimating the average IQ level of the unrest-causers.
My preferred method of cc is death

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
12.04.2012 , 09:21 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurvv View Post
This assumes the unrest is caused by people capable of recognizing that statistics disprove their point. IMO you're overestimating the average IQ level of the unrest-causers.
Except statistics will at least reduce that to the low IQ folks- those who know the game will be able to have more meaningful conversations. Right now- everyone is at each other's throats and there's never any ground gained because it always comes down to opinions, often biased ones at that.

It doesn't help that BW is straight out lying about what their metrics are showing- nobody believes them when they say the KDR is relatively stable across the board, how stupid do they think we are? Or mercs- I think nobody is going to deny they have the lowest rep in RWZ... and it's nothing new, they've been in this position well over half a year. Where is BW on these things?

WaywardOne's Avatar


WaywardOne
12.04.2012 , 09:47 PM | #56
Some players are never going to be happy, respectful, considerate or patient. They blow things out of proportion, deal only with absolutes and will never say a positive thing about anything or anyone unless it agrees completely with their own position. These players, many of the posters above, are good at venting and that is all.

I'll take BW's analytics over most of the posters on this board any day of the week. But I'll take numbers I can gather/monitor/verify and analyze myself over anyone's at BW. The main problem is that I/we have access to very few of those numbers. And another big problem is that many people have opinions they will defend to the death based on no verifiable facts (opinions like: "the world is flat" and "ur is the best defensive ability in the game" and "sorcs suck at team play" and "maras are overrunning the game" - even though there are far more sorcs than anything else in the 21-50 range and @50 on both POT5 and Jung Ma last time I checked).

MagicmanNC's Avatar


MagicmanNC
12.04.2012 , 10:46 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by WaywardOne View Post
Some players are never going to be happy, respectful, considerate or patient. They blow things out of proportion, deal only with absolutes and will never say a positive thing about anything or anyone unless it agrees completely with their own position. These players, many of the posters above, are good at venting and that is all.

I'll take BW's analytics over most of the posters on this board any day of the week. But I'll take numbers I can gather/monitor/verify and analyze myself over anyone's at BW. The main problem is that I/we have access to very few of those numbers. And another big problem is that many people have opinions they will defend to the death based on no verifiable facts (opinions like: "the world is flat" and "ur is the best defensive ability in the game" and "sorcs suck at team play" and "maras are overrunning the game" - even though there are far more sorcs than anything else in the 21-50 range and @50 on both POT5 and Jung Ma last time I checked).
8 pages to find a worthy post....thank you

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
12.05.2012 , 01:23 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Nightkin View Post
So...i will start with a link to the QA in question- http://www.darthhater.com/articles/s...ions-regarding


In particular in want to highlight the following; "We pay very close attention to both engagement and balance in PvP. Some things we examine are player kill to death ratios and average rewards gained for every class to make sure that balance is maintained across the board.

And ; Balance-wise, kill/death ratios are well-balanced, with all Advanced Classes having kill/death ratios very close to each other.

I guess that means that dps sorc/sage and dps merc/trooper is perfectly fine? What about Shieldtech PTs? According to these metrics, "kill/death ratios are well-balanced" across all AC...

For real?! I simply cannot comprehend how this could possibly be true when you have some classes who clearly have great difficulties to perform on a adequate level. Hell, even i am getting interested in rolling something like a shadow these days...
Suddenly it all makes sense.

Now, I mean, in a shooter or something, it would make some semblance of sense to do it that way. Wouldn't be a perfect way to do it. But it might be better than throwing darts on the wall.

But a "kill" in a shooter isn't awarded the same way as it is in SWTOR. I'm not a "gee looky at my kills and medals at the end of a warzone" guy, so I never learned exactly what constitutes a kill in SWTOR. But it sure as Hell isn't a deathblow, which is how shooters do it. Couting up the amount of own-team kills vs the other team's deaths frequently yields something like a 4-1 ratio.

From what I can tell (and again, I'm someone who's preoccupied with winning and couldn't care less about stats or medals, so I might very well be wrong), a kill in SWTOR is the equivalent of an assist OR a kill in a shooter. Maybe more stuff. Seem to get quite a few kills on my healer, and its not like I go around dotting everything before I start tossing probes out or use grenade on cooldown (out of fear of accidentally breaking someone's cc when my attention's divided between the warzone and my op frame). So is healing a guy who kills a bunch of people giving me kills? If I mez someone, then someone else kills him a minute later when I'm nowhere near the guy, do I get a kill despite not damaging him?

Here's where the problem lies. Let's take Halo, because that's what I've been playing lately. Suppose there was a map with a ton of choke points. Suppose there was a weapon with a huge splash area that did very little damage. And suppose shields were 3 times as strong and regenerated ~ every 30 seconds. And suppose assists were counted as kills. Kill/Death ratio would have the devs believe that weapon was way better than, say, a DMR or battle rifle. But they'd be horribly, horribly wrong.

That's not unlike what the data in swtor would lead them to think if they use kill/death when a kill isn't actually a kill. Honestly, it would be better to use solo-kill/death ratio to balance the classes, though that would also be a pretty bad way to do it.

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
12.05.2012 , 01:35 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
except that 9/10 times game metrics are not representative of what is actually going on.

metrics usually take into account the whole population. which results in comparing samples with different sizes, which you generally shouldnt do.

it also means that the metrics are heavily diluted the greater the population. bioware should be using the top 5% of each class and adjusting sample sizes to make sure all ACs are compared equally.

you cannot objectively compare 5,000 Maras to 500 Mercs, and balancing them game on the performance of bad players is a terrible idea
While I detest your idea that arsenal mercs should get an instant tracer missile, you're pretty much killing it in this thread. Great posts all, at least through page 3.

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
12.05.2012 , 01:43 AM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by UGLYMRJ View Post
DPS Operative: < 1%

DPS Mercenary: < 1%

DPS Sorcerer: 3%

Healing Operative: > 99%


Carnage Marauder: > 99%

Pyrotech Powertech: 92%

Shieldtech Powertech: 4%

You get the idea...
I don't think I;ve actually seen a rated team without one of those. Winning team or not.